thanks for the post

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Ma..._to_the_e.shtml

This was an eye opener for me.If you haven't read it I do hope you find it as interesting as I did.
Cheers to all
TS

At the time Mary and Jim broke up, Jim wasn't planning to be a rock star or have a rock star life. He was going to school in Florida and later transferred to UCLA to study film. This was before he ever thought about being a singer.

I have not read Paul's book, but from what other friends of Jim's who went to UCLA with him and also knew me told me years later, Jim and Mary were having problems from the time she followed him to UCLA. She wanted to be a dancer. Jim did not approve. He wanted Mary to focus on Jim.

One day after several fights, Mary discovered Jim in bed with another girl. The result? They broke up. Who broke up with whom I do not know, but I do know that one of the lines in "The End" is

"It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

I'm not sure that Jim would have written those specific words if Mary had broken up with him and he was the one left behind. It would be out of character for him.

Friends who knew Pamela for years--from the time she met Jim and before at LACC--told me that Pamela was interested in and trained to be a designer. After she met Jim it was much more important to Pamela to make a home for Jim and support him in his work. Her ultimate goal was to marry Jim. The work Pamela wanted Jim to do wasn't as a singer. She wanted him to write poetry, work in film, and quit the world of rock and roll. Pamela did not like Jim's rock world and what it was doing to both of them. Ultimately, Jim didn't either.

I think that for a period of time Mary was the love of Jim's life, but I think it was a teenage view of "the love of one's life." As Jim got older, that view of who was the love of his life and why changed. I think that in many ways Pamela filled the bill for his later period more than Mary did, judging from what he told me about Pamela and his positive and negative feelings for her.

Thanks Salli,
When I read this article it felt like a piece of information was missing,things were a bit stilted from Mary's p.o.v.,It's tough to look back and regret ones actions or lack of .I'm glad you dissected this as Pamela was the wife and confidant of a serious artist in his prime, she also died a tragic figure much more so than Jim Morrison who lost his life but left his thoughts and ideas,along with his music behind.Thanks
TS

Pam left us some of Jim's poetry, through what is now the Courson-Morrison Estate.

It will be interesting to see what happens to that poetry when Pearl Courson dies.

What about Pearl's heirs? Would her share not go to her daughter who would then have a hand in what happens to the writings?

I find their story compelling; it's very human and easy to relate to Mary, Pam and Jim.

Although your post was addressed to Salli, I just want to comment on your use of the word "human". I like that Sheri. It's a word that is not always used when referring to Jim or Pam on these boards... yet it's one of the most important words. Sometimes, when I hear all the Jim-worship and Pam-worship (not all necessarily on this board) I often think that some people forget they were human.. not a god and goddess... but simply human. And young. It's always refreshing to see someone relate to them just as they were.

Yeah Mary's story definitly tethers Pam and Jim to mortal status.I say let her dance to,her story is full of remorse and thoughts of what could have been only if.

Yeah Mary's story definitly tethers Pam and Jim to mortal status.I say let her dance to,her story is full of remorse and thoughts of what could have been only if.

Mary only danced at Gazzari's as a go-go dancer for a couple of months when she first moved to LA. She then enrolled in art school and went on painting, at least that's what she says. It's apparent that she remained fond of Jim (and vice versa) until the day he died, and that they were very close friends, despite the failure of the romance. Who knows what might have ultimately happened between them? I think he had deeper feelings for Mary than he did for Pam, possibly, but that Mary had put that behind her at that time.

The essential difference appears to be that Mary was not willing to put up with Jim's philanderings and general rowdiness, and Pam was, though with some reluctance. They both dated Jim for about the same period of time - Mary for 4 years or so, and Pam for about the same length of time - but Mary gave him the heave-ho when she found him cheating. Pam had to deal with the Jim-as-rock-star, Mary couldn't tolerate that, and rightfully so. Mary didn't cheat on Jim, but Pam did, with Jean at the very least.

I rather doubt, though there's no evidence either way, that Mary was terribly interested in or attracted to drugs and drinking, where Pam could certainly hold her own in that regard. Not to denigrate Pam, mind you, but just stating established facts.

Maybe if he'd stayed with or gone back to Mary - just conjecture - he might still be with us. However, she was "away, away in India."

The essential difference appears to be that Mary was not willing to put up with Jim's philanderings and general rowdiness, and Pam was, though with some reluctance.

They both dated Jim for about the same period of time - Mary for 4 years or so, and Pam for about the same length of time

- but Mary gave him the heave-ho when she found him cheating. Pam had to deal with the Jim-as-rock-star, Mary couldn't tolerate that, and rightfully so. Mary didn't cheat on Jim, but Pam did, with Jean at the very least.

Maybe if he'd stayed with or gone back to Mary - just conjecture - he might still be with us. However, she was "away, away in India."

However, Jim was still thinking about Mary, hence "Away, away in India" from the Miami concert, and also was writing songs about her, besides The End.

From the link provided at the beginning of the thread:

"In January 1990, a letter to the editor of the Los Angeles Times suggested that the Doors song Crystal Ship was about crystal methamphetamine: The ship stood for a hypodermic needle, the kiss meant drug injection.

Doors drummer John Densmore responded with a letter of his own: "Jim wrote The Crystal Ship for Mary Worbelo (sic), a girlfriend with whom he was breaking up. . . . The song was a goodbye love song."

The first two stanzas:

Before you slip into unconsciousness

I'd like to have another kiss

Another flashing chance at bliss
I believe Morrison used the juice from his break with Mary to make a jump,to help him refocus his future.When you take something away from yourself you gain a certain amount of power over your life,it hurts but it also drives you to new heights especially if you can focus it on something you want to achieve.This is a male POV of this trio,remember men are from Mars.
Another kiss, another kiss

The days are bright and filled with pain

Enclose me in your gentle rain

The time you ran was too insane

We'll meet again, we'll meet again."

From the interview:

"Before a photo shoot for the Doors' fourth album, she says Jim told her: "The first three albums are about you. Didn't you know that?"

"Some 15,000 fans cram into the 10,000-capacity Dinner Key Auditorium, a sweaty, converted seaplane hangar in Miami. Jim Morrison announces his drunken presence with dissonant blasts from a harmonica.

The cover boy, 26 now, has a paunch and beard, a cowboy hat with a skull and crossbones and noticeably slurred speech.

One stanza into the second song, Five to One, he berates the crowd.

"You're all a bunch of f - - - - - - idiots!"

Confused silence. Uncomfortable laughter.

"Letting people tell you what you're gonna do, letting people push you around. How long you do think it's gonna last? . . .

"Maybe you like it. Maybe you like being pushed around. Maybe you love it. Maybe you love getting your face stuck in the s - - -."

Screams from the audience.

"You're all a bunch of slaves. . . .

"Letting everybody push you around. What are you gonna do about it? What are you gonna do about it? What are you gonna do about it? What are you gonna do about it? What are you gonna do about it? What are you gonna do! What are you gonna do! What are you gonna do!"

He talks as much as he sings. He wails about loneliness and rants about love. Three songs after berating the crowd, the music softens and he lets loose a plaintive:

"Away, away, away, away, in India

"Away, away, away, away in In-di-a

"Away, away, away, away in In-di-a

"Away, away, away, away in In-di-a."

Just me, but I think he still cared about Mary, more than he wanted to admit.

Were you going to comment?

I was going to comment and I must of had a computer malfuntion or brain fog.

From a male point of view Morrison used Mary as a jump off point to launch himself into a new reality,one with less safety where he could take more chances.Sometimes by denying yourself what you want you can push yourself further.Men are from Mars ladies.Have a wonderful Easter,y'all.

I've heard other men talk about sacrifices they've made to achieve what they thought they wanted. Then they switch to sad conversations about the women they should never have left. Duh.

From the interview:

"Before a photo shoot for the Doors' fourth album, she says Jim told her: "The first three albums are about you. Didn't you know that?"

Mewsical didn't quote the full lyrics to "Moonlight Drive" so I'll include some very telling ones.

Let's swim to the moon
Let's climb through the tide
You reach your hand to hold me
But I can't be your guide

Easy, I love you
As I watch you glide
Falling through wet forests
On our moonlight drive, baby
Moonlight drive

Come on, baby, gonna take a little ride
Down, down by the ocean side
Gonna get real close
Get real tight
Baby gonna drown tonight
Goin' down, down, down




This is from Mary's interview, but what about Jim? Did Jim say he wrote the first three albums for Mary? No. He didn't.

If you like, I'll grant you the Strange Days album with its mournful series of farewell songs: "You're Lost Little Girl, " "Unhappy Girl," "Moonlight Drive," "My Eyes Have Seen You," and "I Can't See Your Face In My Mind."

Then we have Jim some of his friends that Waiting for the Sun, the third album, was largely about Pamela. "Love Street," is clearly about Pamela, so are "My Wild Love," and "Wintertime Love."

I think Jim wrote "We Could Be So Good Together," but I'm not sure so I'm not including that song in my list.

I think what is most telling about the real status of importance of Jim's feelings towards Mary is that Jim did not go to India to bring Mary back. He had the money. There was nothing to stop Jim. Why didn't he do it? Jim had moved on by then.

If Jim had wanted to be with Mary, he would have been with Mary, especially given her still evidently strong feelings towards him which are obvious all these years later in her interview.

OTOH, everytime Pamela left Jim after an argument and went to another city or country to be with someone else, Jim either went after her and brought her home, or sent her the ticket to come home to Jim.

I think that speaks volumes about who Jim loved more and who mattered more to Jim from 1965 until the day he died.

You made some good points Sally...

I believe Mary, over people who have obviously tried to milk their relationship with Jim for all it's worth. Mary, never gave interviews, never wrote that tell all book, and this makes the things she said all the more credible to me. It's like having Pam around to talk, if she were alive, and yet, some want to dismiss her claims of what Jim told her out-right. That makes no sense to me. She is not PK.

~Sheri

Listen to "Orange County Suite"the last song he ever recorded on his own birthday, 1971. He sounds like he's pinning for Mary? Or was that just my perception?

Why would Mary say that Jim told her the first three albums were about her if he didn't say it? No wonder the woman doesn't want to do interviews, when this is the sort of thing that results. Peggy Green feels the same way.

Going to India to bring Mary back would have required Mary's desire to have him do that. She didn't apparently want to go on with things the way they were.

And 'going to India' required a great deal more time than simply popping over to London on a jet for a few days, especially in those days. He probably didn't really know where she was in India. Just that she had gone there. That's a pretty strong message from Mary to Jim. He had responsibilities to the Doors that didn't allow him to take inordinate amounts of time off to chase after former girlfriends who were making it pretty clear they didn't want to be pursued. Basically, as she had done before, she dumped him.

Although an actual date or whatever isn't given, the timeline of this seems to be after Miami and before the Morrison Hotel album came out.. so I guess maybe end of 1969 or beginning of 1970.

"Mary Werbelow, Jim's old girlfriend from Florida, wrote me a letter and asked me to give Jim a message. She had gotten sick in India and was in a hospital. She asked Jim to send her some money but for some reason, he flat out refused. He asked me to answer her letter. I did, and sent her a small amount of money. We didn't hear from her for a long time after that".
Paul Ferrara/Flash of Eden (Page 145)

Jim refused to answer her or send money himself. Jim only told Paul to send her a letter. Paul said nothing about Jim saying send her some money. I think Paul sent Mary some money from his own bank account.

Jim refused to answer her or send money himself. Jim only told Paul to send her a letter. Paul said nothing about Jim saying send her some money. I think Paul sent Mary some money from his own bank account.

I understood it that way too Salli. Paul states that Jim "refused"... so the impression is that the money Paul sent Mary was his own.
We had mentioned on another thread that it was a bit out of character for Jim to "refuse" since by a lot of his friends accounts, he was a pretty generous guy. I stated then, and I still think now, that it was perhaps a case of Mary not wanting to ask Jim for the money herself... and perhaps Jim refused because she had Paul ask on her behalf. If Mary had've contacted Jim directly, maybe he would've been more obliging.

I don't know. Jim could be very cold to people who he felt hurt him in a major way. He would tend to shut them out of his life.



Clearly the situation with Mary was different. I don't know if a direct appeal would have helped. Jim left communication to Paul. Maybe with time, they would have resolved their differences.

Makes sense. I'd think that anyone who has been hurt in a major way would feel that way. I had someone in my life that I shut out like that.. I think maybe we all have. I suppose it may be just a defense mechanism that kind of just kicks in, you know?

In Mary and Jim's case, maybe a direct appeal would've helped, maybe not. It's another one of those things we'll never know. I do know, however, that not everything can be fixed or resolved when there's major hurt involved. Sometimes it just is what it is.. and it's better left alone.

Mary dumped him once before, and acknowledges that she knew he was very hurt, but they worked through that. I think Jim was temporarily annoyed that Mary felt she had to go through Paul Ferrara rather than come directly to him, but interesting that he said to write her a letter. Perhaps he suspected that Paul would probably send her money, but didn't want to seem like he was just rolling over because she wanted him to, at least from his perspective. I think in time they would have picked up their friendship again. They seemed to have their routine, just like he did with Pam. I don't think Jim liked being on the outs with people for too long. He liked to be friends, even if the friendship had changed.

I don't think "temporary annoyance" was Jim's feeling about Mary.

If Jim wasn't predisposed to communicating directly with someone, he passed the chore on to someone else in an "out of sight, out of mind" coldly disengaged fashion. Jim did this habitually.

Jim didn't mind being on the outs with people, if he felt he was right, or if he felt they had hurt him in some way. He could shut people out permanently. He had no problem with that. I think that what happened with Paul and Mary indicates to me that as far as Jim was concerned, Jim had moved on.

Can you give an example of Jim shutting people out permanently?

I thought you only knew him for a few months, yet somehow you know so much more about him than anyone else in his life.

I'll have to disagree with passing the chore on. If you don't want to communicate with someone at all, you don't. You don't have someone else do it. You simply ignore it completely and ask your friend to stay out of it.

In the Mary and Jim scenario, there was blame on both sides. She reached out to him when she was ill and far away, and he at least reached back through Paul Ferrara. That doesn't seem like he was completely cutting her off and being cold, he was simply protecting himself from getting hurt again. He was quite vulnerable to Mary, I believe, and just didn't want to be manipulated any longer, even though I don't believe it was intentional on her part. I'm sure she was aware of his relationship with Pam by then and maybe she felt it was better to approach him through Paul, so he would not mistake her intentions.

She needed help and she hoped Jim would be able to help her. Indirectly, even by shrugging it off with a 'no big deal, Paul, you handle it," he did.

Mary dumped him once before, and acknowledges that she knew he was very hurt, but they worked through that. I think Jim was temporarily annoyed that Mary felt she had to go through Paul Ferrara rather than come directly to him, but interesting that he said to write her a letter. Perhaps he suspected that Paul would probably send her money, but didn't want to seem like he was just rolling over because she wanted him to, at least from his perspective. I think in time they would have picked up their friendship again. They seemed to have their routine, just like he did with Pam. I don't think Jim liked being on the outs with people for too long. He liked to be friends, even if the friendship had changed.

Perhaps someone should ask Paul?