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jym
A friend just gave me a copy of The Doors Stockholm show, the 2nd concert has The End on it & at the start Jim has problems with the lightman. Jim wants him to turn on some blue lights but the guy only gets some red lights on. Did Jim EVER get a lightman to get the lighting right?

laugh.gif or mad.gif

cool.gif
MeagerFood521
QUOTE(jym @ Feb 20 2008, 03:03 AM) [snapback]25781[/snapback]
A friend just gave me a copy of The Doors Stockholm show, the 2nd concert has The End on it & at the start Jim has problems with the lightman. Jim wants him to turn on some blue lights but the guy only gets some red lights on. Did Jim EVER get a lightman to get the lighting right?

laugh.gif or mad.gif

cool.gif



Jym.......believe it or not I am not sure and I have that copy. I do know in Hollywood B. he wanted the lights turned down...but I don't
think that happened. Wondered if the L-man kept his job????
Billy Cooke
Since they were filming the Hollywood Bowl concert, I guess Morrison was well aware of the fact that it was impossible to "turn down the lights". But hey, it was a cool anarchic kind of rap.
MeagerFood521
QUOTE(Billy Cooke @ Feb 20 2008, 11:10 AM) [snapback]25786[/snapback]
Since they were filming the Hollywood Bowl concert, I guess Morrison was well aware of the fact that it was impossible to "turn down the lights". But hey, it was a cool anarchic kind of rap.



Billy...as Randy Jackson would probably have said to Jim 'Dude, you worked that out'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jym
QUOTE(Billy Cooke @ Feb 20 2008, 05:10 AM) [snapback]25786[/snapback]
Since they were filming the Hollywood Bowl concert, I guess Morrison was well aware of the fact that it was impossible to "turn down the lights". But hey, it was a cool anarchic kind of rap.


Most of that stems from the time when bands relied on the venue to provide the lighting, & most probably it was some 50 year old union guy who didn't give a shit what some long hair punk on stage wanted, or maybe especially didn't want to do what the long hair punk wanted.
Sunday Trucker
I've thought about that too Jym! smile.gif
In Aquarius he asks, just before Five to one, to "leave the lights out for this one, alright?", but since we can't see it...I'm not sure.
On PBS tv there is a moment where the lights go out, or was that just on the version of The Soft Parade DVD?

I heard the concert you mentioned he also makes a joke "let's try reverse psychology, give me a lot of red lights!" biggrin.gif

It's a shame he never got that one right...
mewsical
QUOTE(jym @ Feb 20 2008, 05:12 PM) [snapback]25797[/snapback]
Most of that stems from the time when bands relied on the venue to provide the lighting, & most probably it was some 50 year old union guy who didn't give a shit what some long hair punk on stage wanted, or maybe especially didn't want to do what the long hair punk wanted.


It was ridiculous trying to get the Union to work with rock acts under any circumstances. Reminds me of the vocal session I went to with Paul Rothchild. Janis was cutting Me and Bobby McGee of all songs. Paul was having to work with a Columbia engineer - an older guy, with short greased back hair, black-rimmed glasses and an attitude. Janis was getting somewhat frustrated with something that was going on technically, but kept soldiering on. After a take, Paul leaned forward to talk to her over the p.a, then he suddenly noticed that Mr. Union Guy had flipped open the newspaper, and was kicked back in his chair. Paul asked him what he thought he was doing, to which MUG replied, "I'm on a 20 minute break, as I am entitled to under my contract." At which point he continued reading. Janis, sensing something was up, came cannoning into the control room, pretty upset. MUG was rolling his eyes, while she took off at him, and Paul was muttering how he wished they'd let him work with Fritz Richmond. The session ended right there. I've often wondered whether MUG was allowed to finish the sessions!

The Union still controls concerts on the road, to the extent that at least six Union electricians, etc. are at every gig in every town. They do absolutely nothing, except stand around, as the bands don't want them handling anything. Once the show runs past 11, the Union guys are on golden time, which they love of course. Makes for a nice evening for them, hanging around backstage, chatting with people, getting free food and a free concert as well. And getting paid mucho moolah.
HWY4371
QUOTE(jym @ Feb 19 2008, 07:03 PM) [snapback]25781[/snapback]
A friend just gave me a copy of The Doors Stockholm show, the 2nd concert has The End on it & at the start Jim has problems with the lightman. Jim wants him to turn on some blue lights but the guy only gets some red lights on. Did Jim EVER get a lightman to get the lighting right?

laugh.gif or mad.gif

cool.gif


but maybe that's happenend at hollywood bowl, if i'm wrong... wink.gif
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (HWY4371 @ Sep 3 2008, 04:19 AM) *
but maybe that's happenend at hollywood bowl, if i'm wrong... wink.gif

From what I've read JDM tried to avoid day gig's because he didn't like performing in the bright light,maybe the cloak of darkness brought out the shaman in him.Some of those t.v. shows The Doors did his eyes remain shut throughout most of the performance.Interesting cat.
MeagerFood521
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Mar 25 2009, 08:32 PM) *
From what I've read JDM tried to avoid day gig's because he didn't like performing in the bright light,maybe the cloak of darkness brought out the shaman in him.Some of those t.v. shows The Doors did his eyes remain shut throughout most of the performance.Interesting cat.



Mojo....sometimes he wore sunglasses on TV. Myself, I don't think it had anything to do with the Shaman....could have been sensitivity to light itself having had a few beers the night before.
moredensmore
good point!!
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (Sunday Trucker @ Apr 9 2008, 01:28 PM) *
I've thought about that too Jym! smile.gif
In Aquarius he asks, just before Five to one, to "leave the lights out for this one, alright?", but since we can't see it...I'm not sure.
On PBS tv there is a moment where the lights go out, or was that just on the version of The Soft Parade DVD?

I heard the concert you mentioned he also makes a joke "let's try reverse psychology, give me a lot of red lights!" biggrin.gif

It's a shame he never got that one right...

Maybe someone can back this up,i'm not sure where I read it but apparently Mr.Morrison would close his eyes before the show to ignite his energy and mind set and would ask to be led onstage with his eyes closed.Sometime during the show he'd open his eyes and reveal the audience to himself.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 8 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Maybe someone can back this up,i'm not sure where I read it but apparently Mr.Morrison would close his eyes before the show to ignite his energy and mind set and would ask to be led onstage with his eyes closed.Sometime during the show he'd open his eyes and reveal the audience to himself.


Don't know how many of you have performed with a blaze of stage lights in your face, but it can be a bit distracting. You learn to cope with it, but it's never that wonderful. Jim also may not have known about the fourth wall rule in stage work, i.e. you have to conduct yourself, at least when acting, as if you are in a room with four walls, and are not being observed. God knows what Jim might have had going on audience-wise in the first six or so rows, which are always visible to the front man in a rock band. I can only imagine what a distraction that could have been for him.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 8 2009, 03:23 PM) *
Don't know how many of you have performed with a blaze of stage lights in your face, but it can be a bit distracting. You learn to cope with it, but it's never that wonderful. Jim also may not have known about the fourth wall rule in stage work, i.e. you have to conduct yourself, at least when acting, as if you are in a room with four walls, and are not being observed. God knows what Jim might have had going on audience-wise in the first six or so rows, which are always visible to the front man in a rock band. I can only imagine what a distraction that could have been for him.

Good point about lights,when you think of rock shows the singer is the person in control,you don't think about what they have to deal with to get there performance across.My take on lights and closed eyes leans more towards his desire to remain in control of his own vision,I believe Mr.Morrison to be of 2 minds.One was the intelligent,somewhat shy,southern gentelman,the Doors early shows he had his back to the audience.Afraid? Maybe...The 2nd is the lead singer man fueled on alchohol and pushing the limits of expression,sometimes too far,sometimes stuck in between both minds struggling to the other side.There is no doubt Jim Morrison had incredible mind control,it takes an awful lot of energy to perform while under the influence of LSD or booze,not that this was the norm but that he did do it on occasion and could maintain.This is the crux of my argument with drug freaks who watch and critic Morrison and don't ever do,if it's so easy then do it.Jim Morrison got out there with a fantastic band and performed,he succeeded,he was able to lay down a gurth of superb music and poetry.It takes an enormous amount of energy and disipline to be able to do this and he did do it.Booze does catch up with you and when your under weight the stuff hits quick,you go legless fast.Morrison was never fat,thats another bunch of bull,he got back to normal weight but in comparision to his young lion look the change seemed drastic,sometimes the beer bloat was obvious.
TS
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 8 2009, 05:31 PM) *
Good point about lights,when you think of rock shows the singer is the person in control,you don't think about what they have to deal with to get there performance across.


It's tough to be the visual focus throughout the entire show. RR and J could hang in the shadows, get into their own private moments musically, while Jim was out there being the ringmaster.

QUOTE
My take on lights and closed eyes leans more towards his desire to remain in control of his own vision,I believe Mr.Morrison to be of 2 minds.One was the intelligent,somewhat shy,southern gentelman,the Doors early shows he had his back to the audience.


When I first met Mick Taylor he was 17 and just beginning his musical career with John Mayall, while still living at home with his parents. Mick was a brilliant player but froze when confronted with an audience, especially when taking solos. Wisely, Mayall told him to go stand between the Marshall stacks, keep turned away from the audience and lights, etc., and take his solos. It worked very well.

QUOTE
Afraid? Maybe...


Insecure more likely.

QUOTE
The 2nd is the lead singer man fueled on alchohol and pushing the limits of expression,sometimes too far,sometimes stuck in between both minds struggling to the other side.There is no doubt Jim Morrison had incredible mind control,it takes an awful lot of energy to perform while under the influence of LSD or booze,not that this was the norm but that he did do it on occasion and could maintain.


Speaking only for myself, I find performing under the influence of anything other than music a real chore. I got into performing later than Jim however. Maybe he needed to take the edge off the adrenalin, because more than likely he suffered from stage fright, and alpha blockers were not available in those days. So he used booze, which was his worst enemy.

QUOTE
This is the crux of my argument with drug freaks who watch and critic Morrison and don't ever do,if it's so easy then do it.Jim Morrison got out there with a fantastic band and performed,he succeeded,he was able to lay down a gurth of superb music and poetry.It takes an enormous amount of energy and disipline to be able to do this and he did do it.


It takes passion, more than anything else. Jim's passion for the Doors was burning out, but not his passion for art and creativity.

QUOTE
Booze does catch up with you and when your under weight the stuff hits quick,you go legless fast.


Jim was a devout alcoholic. He was also a Type A personality - sporty, physical, active. He had plenty of energy, but doing drugs and drinking will take its toll, no matter what. Worse, it will affect your judgment.

QUOTE
Morrison was never fat,thats another bunch of bull,he got back to normal weight but in comparision to his young lion look the change seemed drastic,sometimes the beer bloat was obvious.


Photos of his last days in Paris indicate he had put on considerable pounds. To my eye, it looks like fluid retention, not blubber.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 8 2009, 06:10 PM) *
It's tough to be the visual focus throughout the entire show. RR and J could hang in the shadows, get into their own private moments musically, while Jim was out there being the ringmaster.



When I first met Mick Taylor he was 17 and just beginning his musical career with John Mayall, while still living at home with his parents. Mick was a brilliant player but froze when confronted with an audience, especially when taking solos. Wisely, Mayall told him to go stand between the Marshall stacks, keep turned away from the audience and lights, etc., and take his solos. It worked very well.



Insecure more likely.



Speaking only for myself, I find performing under the influence of anything other than music a real chore. I got into performing later than Jim however. Maybe he needed to take the edge off the adrenalin, because more than likely he suffered from stage fright, and alpha blockers were not available in those days. So he used booze, which was his worst enemy.



It takes passion, more than anything else. Jim's passion for the Doors was burning out, but not his passion for art and creativity.



Jim was a devout alcoholic. He was also a Type A personality - sporty, physical, active. He had plenty of energy, but doing drugs and drinking will take its toll, no matter what. Worse, it will affect your judgment.



Photos of his last days in Paris indicate he had put on considerable pounds. To my eye, it looks like fluid retention, not blubber.

Fluid retention is a tell tale sign of a heart problem and of course long term alchohol abuse leads to health problems.Most people who die from drugs and alchohol die taking them for the first time or trying to get off them,relapses can be fatal,binges deadly.One bad decision and the mortal coil springs.Boom!
I love the way you isolate the sentences and break it down,fantastic.TS
Salli
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 9 2009, 02:11 AM) *
Fluid retention is a tell tale sign of a heart problem and of course long term alchohol abuse leads to health problems.Most people who die from drugs and alchohol die taking them for the first time or trying to get off them,relapses can be fatal,binges deadly.One bad decision and the mortal coil springs.Boom!
I love the way you isolate the sentences and break it down,fantastic.TS



From an article by Tere Tereba, who knew Jim and Pamela and ran into them in Paris shortly before Jim died, and later wrote the following:

QUOTE
Jim looks better than he has in awhile, certainly better than the Miami trial days. He claims to have quit drinking, has lost considerable weight, but the French food has taken its toll, and he still hasn't regained the licorice leather-legged look of the gaunt shadow that prowled L.A. as the "Lizard King."
mewsical
Btw, I mean beta blockers for stage fright, not alpha blockers!

As far as Jim's weight gain in Paris, his face is puffy in several photos with Pam. He was there for nearly 5 months, and perhaps all his good intentions about quitting alcohol, etc. had flown out the window by the time of his death.

Mojo, don't know if you're familiar with Rainier Moddeman's piece - interesting reading, with the usual caveats!

An excerpt:

"In mid June Jim went to see a doctor for the second time, because he had been coughing up blood again. The physician urgently advised him to stop smoking and drinking heavily. From his consumption of alcohol and a great deal of French food, Jim's body had become bloated, and his powers of concentration that he needed to be able to work had diminished significantly and suddenly. He also had severe coughing fits."

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palla...09/quietday.htm
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 10 2009, 07:34 AM) *
Btw, I mean beta blockers for stage fright, not alpha blockers!

As far as Jim's weight gain in Paris, his face is puffy in several photos with Pam. He was there for nearly 5 months, and perhaps all his good intentions about quitting alcohol, etc. had flown out the window by the time of his death.

Mojo, don't know if you're familiar with Rainier Moddeman's piece - interesting reading, with the usual caveats!

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palla...09/quietday.htm

Very heavy,I saw Napolians death mask at Waterloo and that image still remains fresh in my mind.Paris is difficult if you don't speak french well,my neighbor on the Ille San Louis was Steve Clark the guitar player for Deaf Lepoard, he binge drank to death,40 drinks in less than 1 hour,again it's depression and booze.That article hit home with accuracy,that restaurant Le Beautrellis was there when I worked there,small place with excellent food.Heavy article.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 10 2009, 08:27 AM) *
Very heavy,I saw Napolians death mask at Waterloo and that image still remains fresh in my mind.Paris is difficult if you don't speak french well,my neighbor on the Ille San Louis was Steve Clark the guitar player for Deaf Lepoard, he binge drank to death,40 drinks in less than 1 hour,again it's depression and booze.That article hit home with accuracy,that restaurant Le Beautrellis was there when I worked there,small place with excellent food.Heavy article.


That's what Frank Lisciandro thought - that Jim simply missed all his friends, nobody to talk to, and Parisians are not very friendly to outsiders, just by disposition. He might have had a better time in Provence, where they're a little more friendly to strangers. Sad, no matter what happened. I'd forgotten that he had that fall onto the car, which might have reopened the lung damage from the Chateau Marmont fall. But it does seem that he had manifested a few physical problems after his arrival, let alone that dampness we've already talked about, and the failure to follow his doctor's instructions regarding the mixing of his asthma medication and alcohol. It's apparent, at least to me, that Jim died of a combination of many factors, not just one thing. Ultimately, he was drinking himself to death.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 10 2009, 08:33 AM) *
That's what Frank Lisciandro thought - that Jim simply missed all his friends, nobody to talk to, and Parisians are not very friendly to outsiders, just by disposition. He might have had a better time in Provence, where they're a little more friendly to strangers. Sad, no matter what happened. I'd forgotten that he had that fall onto the car, which might have reopened the lung damage from the Chateau Marmont fall. But it does seem that he had manifested a few physical problems after his arrival, let alone that dampness we've already talked about, and the failure to follow his doctor's instructions regarding the mixing of his asthma medication and alcohol. It's apparent, at least to me, that Jim died of a combination of many factors, not just one thing. Ultimately, he was drinking himself to death.

It was the Croque Monsieur at the Le Mazet that brought down Jim,grilled ham and cheese close to midnight is a deadly combination,lets not forget that ham killed Mama Cass and that Keith Richards dietary rule is avoid cheese at all costs.
TS
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 10 2009, 11:14 AM) *
It was the Croque Monsieur at the Le Mazet that brought down Jim,grilled ham and cheese close to midnight is a deadly combination,lets not forget that ham killed Mama Cass and that Keith Richards dietary rule is avoid cheese at all costs.
TS


Ham didn't kill Cass, though. She had a heart attack. There just happened to be a ham sandwich in the room.

I love a good Croque Monsieur myself, but eating it at midnight ... certainly asking for at least a wild episode of acid reflux!

http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/0043...se_sandwich.php
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 10 2009, 11:30 AM) *
Ham didn't kill Cass, though. She had a heart attack. There just happened to be a ham sandwich in the room.

I love a good Croque Monsieur myself, but eating it at midnight ... certainly asking for at least a wild episode of acid reflux!

http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/0043...se_sandwich.php

Mama Cass was fighting mad for her ham and she died for it,the pressure was too much for her and her heart popped .Jim had his Croque Monsieur and went on a ham binge,later he went el binjo on a can of spam before the hot bath and the acid reflux deluxe sent him to the bath.I think we finally have the analysis we've been waiting for,ham and cheese disease.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 10 2009, 04:18 PM) *
Mama Cass was fighting mad for her ham and she died for it,the pressure was too much for her and her heart popped .Jim had his Croque Monsieur and went on a ham binge,later he went el binjo on a can of spam before the hot bath and the acid reflux deluxe sent him to the bath.I think we finally have the analysis we've been waiting for,ham and cheese disease.


She was mad that the Brits had no idea how to make a ham sandwich! Two slices of white bread, a scrape of butter and a slice of ham, and you call that a ham sandwich!? Cass was a friend back in the day, btw. Lovely person. Really a loss to her friends and to music.

At least Jim got a decent ham sandwich! A few of those and you'll start looking like a baby whale! Btw, did you know that Croque Monsieur translates as Mister Crunchy? Me neither.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 10 2009, 05:17 PM) *
She was mad that the Brits had no idea how to make a ham sandwich! Two slices of white bread, a scrape of butter and a slice of ham, and you call that a ham sandwich!? Cass was a friend back in the day, btw. Lovely person. Really a loss to her friends and to music.

At least Jim got a decent ham sandwich! A few of those and you'll start looking like a baby whale! Btw, did you know that Croque Monsieur translates as Mister Crunchy? Me neither.

I think you just said it,"At least Jim got a decent ham sandwich" and that's the truth!He did what he wanted even if it killed him,he bought the ticket and took the ride,he made a bet with his mind.He lived on his own terms and budget...Mister Crunchy,that is insane,I really do believe in "The Universal Mind" now.Eggs,cheese,ham.Mantra....... Have fun always.
Salli
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 10 2009, 02:34 PM) *
Btw, I mean beta blockers for stage fright, not alpha blockers!

As far as Jim's weight gain in Paris, his face is puffy in several photos with Pam. He was there for nearly 5 months, and perhaps all his good intentions about quitting alcohol, etc. had flown out the window by the time of his death.

Mojo, don't know if you're familiar with Rainier Moddeman's piece - interesting reading, with the usual caveats!

An excerpt:

"In mid June Jim went to see a doctor for the second time, because he had been coughing up blood again. The physician urgently advised him to stop smoking and drinking heavily. From his consumption of alcohol and a great deal of French food, Jim's body had become bloated, and his powers of concentration that he needed to be able to work had diminished significantly and suddenly. He also had severe coughing fits."

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palla...09/quietday.htm



when you're dealing with Rainer Moddeman, it's strictly on a caveat emptor or buyer beware. Rainer didn't always check his facts. Rainer bought Patricia Kennealy's story hook line and sinker and still does.

I'd believe Tere Tereba, before I'd buy into Rainer's version of things. Just saying.
mewsical
QUOTE (Salli @ Apr 10 2009, 11:07 PM) *
when you're dealing with Rainer Moddeman, it's strictly on a caveat emptor or buyer beware. Rainer didn't always check his facts. Rainer bought Patricia Kennealy's story hook line and sinker and still does.

I'd believe Tere Tereba, before I'd buy into Rainer's version of things. Just saying.


I already noted that when I posted the link, i.e. "with the usual caveats."
Salli
(I thought mewsical had me on "ignore." She said she did.) rolleyes.gif

There's no harm in doubling the warning where Rainer is concerned. Tere said Jim looked fine and had lost weight.
My post was mostly about Jim's appearance according to an eye witness who knew Jim well.

QUOTE
name='Salli' date='Apr 10 2009, 05:13 AM' post='34561']
From an article by Tere Tereba, who knew Jim and Pamela and ran into them in Paris shortly before Jim died, and later wrote the following: "Jim looks better than he has in awhile, certainly better than the Miami trial days. He claims to have quit drinking, has lost considerable weight, but the French food has taken its toll, and he still hasn't regained the licorice leather-legged look of the gaunt shadow that prowled L.A. as the "Lizard King."
mewsical
QUOTE (Salli @ Apr 11 2009, 09:08 AM) *
(I thought mewsical had me on "ignore." She said she did.) rolleyes.gif

There's no harm in doubling the warning where Rainer is concerned. Tere said Jim looked fine and had lost weight.
My post was mostly about Jim's appearance according to an eye witness who knew Jim well.


I put people on ignore and then take them off, and then put them back on or not. All depends. However, much though I respect Tere's recounting, there's photographic evidence that Jim suddenly became pretty heavy. If Tere saw him in June, which it was as far as I remember, then the weight gain is rather alarming. Of course, it could just be from a surfeit of Croque Monsieurs and booze. Do you know offhand when Herve took the photos, or was it Alain who took the ones where Jim's face just looks huge?
gotothelight
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 11 2009, 12:52 PM) *
I put people on ignore and then take them off, and then put them back on or not. All depends. However, much though I respect Tere's recounting, there's photographic evidence that Jim suddenly became pretty heavy. If Tere saw him in June, which it was as far as I remember, then the weight gain is rather alarming. Of course, it could just be from a surfeit of Croque Monsieurs and booze. Do you know offhand when Herve took the photos, or was it Alain who took the ones where Jim's face just looks huge?

I'm curious if anyone has ever discussed the possibility that Jim may have been on something like prednisone before his death? Your comment Mewsical about his face being huge is something I've always thought from some of those last photos as well. His body didn't appear "fat".. his face appeared bloated.. not fat...which can be.. and very often is... a side effect of something like prednisone. Because there's been more than one source who stated that Jim was having respiratory problems, prednisone would certainly make sense, especially if the bloating happened in a short period of time. I know this from Rick Danko, of The Band, who told me many months before his death that he was on prednisone for respiratory problems (asthma being one of them). By the time he died, his whole body was bloated from it. His face was the first place I noticed it though.. the first place it showed.... suddenly rounder and very bloated. Huge. Perhaps if Jim Morrison had been taking it.. but for a shorter period of time... it would account for the bloating of his face.
This has always been kind of stuck in my head when I think of Jim Morrison.
Salli
I think it was Herve who took the black and whites. Alain took the colored shots. I don't know when either person took them, but I have a vague recollection that Alain's were taken on a day trip before Jim and Pam went to London, so that would be June?

It's my thought that alcohol could also bloat one, perhaps he was taking meds and the combination did it, BUT Jim wasn't very good at continuing to take any pills that were for the betterment of his health. Jim didn't like doctors, needles, or medication that could make him better. His cure for a cold was Jack Daniels. His cure for the upper respiratory infection he had when I first met him was Jack Daniels and lots of cigarettes...so he could breathe. rolleyes.gif
mewsical
QUOTE (gotothelight @ Apr 11 2009, 10:21 AM) *
I'm curious if anyone has ever discussed the possibility that Jim may have been on something like prednisone before his death? Your comment Mewsical about his face being huge is something I've always thought from some of those last photos as well. His body didn't appear "fat".. his face appeared bloated.. not fat...which can be.. and very often is... a side effect of something like prednisone. Because there's been more than one source who stated that Jim was having respiratory problems, prednisone would certainly make sense, especially if the bloating happened in a short period of time. I know this from Rick Danko, of The Band, who told me many months before his death that he was on prednisone for respiratory problems (asthma being one of them). By the time he died, his whole body was bloated from it. His face was the first place I noticed it though.. the first place it showed.... suddenly rounder and very bloated. Huge. Perhaps if Jim Morrison had been taking it.. but for a shorter period of time... it would account for the bloating of his face.
This has always been kind of stuck in my head when I think of Jim Morrison.


Several of Jim's friends have reported that Jim was suffering from upper respiratory problems around the time he left for Paris and a little before. Pam did take him to the doctor twice while they were there - presumably for something related to the same complaint.

Some of the side effects noted here:

http://ibdcrohns.about.com/cs/prescription...dprednisone.htm

"Avoid drinking alcohol while you are taking prednisone. " - it exacerbates the side effects, some of which are rather nasty.
mewsical
QUOTE (Salli @ Apr 11 2009, 11:24 AM) *
I think it was Herve who took the black and whites. Alain took the colored shots. I don't know when either person took them, but I have a vague recollection that Alain's were taken on a day trip before Jim and Pam went to London, so that would be June?

It's my thought that alcohol could also bloat one, perhaps he was taking meds and the combination did it, BUT Jim wasn't very good at continuing to take any pills that were for the betterment of his health. Jim didn't like doctors, needles, or medication that could make him better. His cure for a cold was Jack Daniels. His cure for the upper respiratory infection he had when I first met him was Jack Daniels and lots of cigarettes...so he could breathe. rolleyes.gif


Based on those links I just put up, he probably didn't like the side effects of the prednisone one bit and just stopped taking it, returning to the Jack Daniels and cigarette cure, or the French variety of same.


mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 11 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Based on those links I just put up, he probably didn't like the side effects of the prednisone one bit and just stopped taking it, returning to the Jack Daniels and cigarette cure, or the French variety of same.

I noticed on the Prednisone link that one of the side effects was hiccups and Jim's French buddy mentioned him eating in solitude and suffering a bad hiccup attack.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 11 2009, 01:08 PM) *
I noticed on the Prednisone link that one of the side effects was hiccups and Jim's French buddy mentioned him eating in solitude and suffering a bad hiccup attack.


I saw that as well, and wondered if it was related to the prednisone. That was Alain Ronay who observed that, and not long before Jim passed on. It's a dangerous drug to mix with alcohol apparently. Worsens the side effects, some of which can be severe. I also wonder if Jim was as honest as he might have been about his drinking - not so much that the doctor would be judgmental, but he could have had severe liver damage, and prednisone is hard on the liver.
gotothelight
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 11 2009, 04:08 PM) *
I noticed on the Prednisone link that one of the side effects was hiccups and Jim's French buddy mentioned him eating in solitude and suffering a bad hiccup attack.


So if Ronay is to be believed about the hiccups, there could be a connection I suppose. The prednisone thing has always been in my head about all of this, but I wasn't sure if it had been discussed before or not. Somehow, it makes sense. Of course, it doesn't give us any definitive answer as to what he ultimately died of that day in Paris, but it sure doesn't rule out perhaps some sort of severe respiratory problem.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (gotothelight @ Apr 11 2009, 03:20 PM) *
So if Ronay is to be believed about the hiccups, there could be a connection I suppose. The prednisone thing has always been in my head about all of this, but I wasn't sure if it had been discussed before or not. Somehow, it makes sense. Of course, it doesn't give us any definitive answer as to what he ultimately died of that day in Paris, but it sure doesn't rule out perhaps some sort of severe respiratory problem.

Check this link if you can drugs.emedtv.com/prednisone/alcohol-and-prednisone.html I googled prednisone and alcohol and the side effects match the symptoms Morrison was experiencing prior to his death,mainly vomiting blood. Interesting.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 11 2009, 04:18 PM) *
Check this link if you can drugs.emedtv.com/prednisone/alcohol-and-prednisone.html I googled prednisone and alcohol and the side effects match the symptoms Morrison was experiencing prior to his death,mainly vomiting blood. Interesting.


This is a better link to the same site. Yes, it is interesting. Wonder if the doc who prescribed the meds was a friend Dr. Vassile.

http://drugs.emedtv.com/prednisone/prednisone.html

P.S. I think we are trying to shed light on the subject! Hence, Hey, Mr. Lightman!
gotothelight
Thanks for the links Mojo and Mewsical. Interesting indeed. As I said, this has kind of been on my mind for awhile now, and I was curious if the connections I was making seemed feasible. I believe they do. Of course, it's not a definitive answer.. but I've always thought it made more sense, medically speaking, than some of the the other theories, given Morrison's symptoms. I do find it very interesting that drinking alcohol while taking prednisone can cause gastrointestinal ulcers/bleeding.

I suppose it's also possible that Jim did snort some of Pam's Heroin... which would account for things she said and her feelings of guilt... but what if that's not what ultimately killed him? Without there having been an autopsy, we'll really never know.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (gotothelight @ Apr 11 2009, 06:31 PM) *
Thanks for the links Mojo and Mewsical. Interesting indeed. As I said, this has kind of been on my mind for awhile now, and I was curious if the connections I was making seemed feasible. I believe they do. Of course, it's not a definitive answer.. but I've always thought it made more sense, medically speaking, than some of the the other theories, given Morrison's symptoms. I do find it very interesting that drinking alcohol while taking prednisone can cause gastrointestinal ulcers/bleeding.

I suppose it's also possible that Jim did snort some of Pam's Heroin... which would account for things she said and her feelings of guilt... but what if that's not what ultimately killed him? Without there having been an autopsy, we'll really never know.

Something that I've always wondered about is What was Morrison doing up so late?A side effect of a drug like prednisone is insomnia,I always thought maybe he was doing some cocaine and that kept him up or even sent him to have a hot bath,symptoms of a cocaine overdose gives the user a sensation of being cold,a hot shower or bath usually opens the system back up.The other problem was always even if he did snort heroin what was he doing up?normally people nod out or scratch themselves to sleep.I'm going to check drug interactions of prednisone and a narcotic.We'll never know for sure unless a foresnsic test were done and I'm not even going there.Somehow the theory we're discussing albeit unpprovable is somewhat comforting and thats a good thing.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 11 2009, 10:12 PM) *
Something that I've always wondered about is What was Morrison doing up so late?A side effect of a drug like prednisone is insomnia,I always thought maybe he was doing some cocaine and that kept him up or even sent him to have a hot bath,symptoms of a cocaine overdose gives the user a sensation of being cold,a hot shower or bath usually opens the system back up.The other problem was always even if he did snort heroin what was he doing up?normally people nod out or scratch themselves to sleep.I'm going to check drug interactions of prednisone and a narcotic.We'll never know for sure unless a foresnsic test were done and I'm not even going there.Somehow the theory we're discussing albeit unpprovable is somewhat comforting and thats a good thing.

Being out of breath is another side effect of prednisone,Jim had trouble carrying wood up the stairs to his apartment.
mewsical
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 12 2009, 08:38 AM) *
Being out of breath is another side effect of prednisone,Jim had trouble carrying wood up the stairs to his apartment.


You're right about the heroin thing - hyperactivity is certainly not one of it's notable effects! He should have crashed out, like Pam did. Sounds like the prednisone could be the culprit here, mixed with Jim's usual alcohol intake, which was really asking for trouble. Don't know when Pam got him to the doctor who prescribed the stuff, but if he'd been taking it for a month or so, plus drinking ...
Salli
As I see it, we have Rainer's word and Alain's word for the visit to the visit to the doctor in France. Does anyone have a more reliable source than those two fictionalists?

A lot of the side affects of prednisone are counteracted by lasix, which was given to my father over a period of months. Many of the standard problems with prednisone were avoided with the lasix.

Furthermore Jim avoided taking pills every chance he got. He thought they were useless, a plague, he hated taking pills. So, I doubt that he would have taken the pills for more than a day. That's just the way he was.

Janet and Babe and others who knew Jim at the time he left for Paris did not notice any upper respiratory problems at that time. He was already well on the way to healing from the Chateau fall.

As for no hyperactivity on heroin...my friend Sharon did her best house cleaning on heroin. She was not non functional by any stretch of the imagination. My friend Pam took her heroin with downers. She was non functional.

Perhaps the way you are on heroin has something to do with your metabolism, the doses you get used to, and the other drugs you take with it. unsure.gif

mewsical
My father also took Lasix, as he was suffering from congestive heart failure and it is a useful diuretic. Used in horse racing, but was banned in many countries by the mid-90s. I don't know if it was available in the early 70s, especially in France. Completely different range of drugs in use in Europe in those days, but prednisone was, as my mother used an asthma inhaler which included prednisone. Either way, it would have been yet another pill for him to deal with. I tend to give some credence to the prednisone theory, especially as Jim was back to his old habits, i.e. booze and ciggies, at least to the extent that it may have caused some of the health issues that have been offered first-hand from witnesses who were there in Paris.

As far as both Rainier and Alain being fictionalists, in some respects yes, but what would be the point of making up a story about Pam taking Jim to the doctor twice in a rather short space of time? There is strong photographic evidence that Jim's face was bloated in June of 1971, from some cause or other. Agnes Varda also noted he sounded like a malfunctioning car engine. Something must have been wrong. Agnes is very cut and dried in her version of events.

You told me that you gave Jim antibiotics when he was coughing blood and apparently he finished the course, so he wasn't exactly anti-pill. He was okay taking handfuls of downers, and Ray has reported that. So have witnesses at Thee Experience, who have also said that Jim was not interested in heroin, although it was available there for him.

Paris is a damp, unhealthy place for someone coming from the dry, desert atmosphere of L.A. If Jim had even so much as an inkling of upper respiratory problems, let alone he smoked like a chimney, that could have caused him to go back to hacking, and Pam probably did take him to a doctor.

I wish Babe would step up and answer some of this stuff. Janet only knew Jim for about five minutes compared to Babe, Frank, Leon, Paul, Kathy, etc. But I suspect that even if he did, he'd get shouted down and argued with.
Salli
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 13 2009, 12:32 AM) *
...As far as both Rainier and Alain being fictionalists, in some respects yes, but what would be the point of making up a story about Pam taking Jim to the doctor twice in a rather short space of time? There is strong photographic evidence that Jim's face was bloated in June of 1971, from some cause or other. Agnes Varda also noted he sounded like a malfunctioning car engine. Something must have been wrong. Agnes is very cut and dried in her version of events.


The cause for the bloating could also have been caused by abuse of alcohol.

The following are reasons for making up stories.

1.) Perhaps Rainer was looking for drama and he looked no further than Alain's report. Remember Rainer completely believed Kennealy as well.

2.) According to Alain, on the day Jim died, Alain was the first and only one to mention to the doctors that Jim had had respiratory problems and seen doctors in England and France. Alain was the one who actually translated what Pamela said for the report. Who knows what Pamela actually really definitively said. We only have Alain's word that what he said in his translation to the police is what Pamela said. So, did he translate what she actually said, or did he say what he thought would go over better in order to paint the portrait of a sick man and cover up any suspicion of drugs.

Btw, Alain did agree with Tere Tereba that Jim had lost weight in June 1971.

QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 13 2009, 12:32 AM) *
You told me that you gave Jim antibiotics when he was coughing blood and apparently he finished the course, so he wasn't exactly anti-pill. He was okay taking handfuls of downers, and Ray has reported that. So have witnesses at Thee Experience, who have also said that Jim was not interested in heroin, although it was available there for him.


Jim coughed. He broke a blood vessel in his throat. There was a little blood...my guess is less than a 1/4 teaspoon full, maybe half that. I didn't feel at the time that there was anything to panic about. I've done the same thing myself. That was the only time I saw Jim cough up blood.

Per doctor's instructions, I made sure Jim got the antibiotics he needed when he had a light respiratory infection in October 1970. If I'd left it up to Jim to take the pills on his own, he wouldn't have done it and said so. After a week or so, Jim was feeling fine.

Jim felt pills were for recreational purposes. Downers were recreational. So were uppers. I understand that later he tried heroin to see what it was that attracted Pamela to it. That would have been in 1970 after Jim's Thee Experience days.

QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 13 2009, 12:32 AM) *
I wish Babe would step up and answer some of this stuff. Janet only knew Jim for about five minutes compared to Babe, Frank, Leon, Paul, Kathy, etc. But I suspect that even if he did, he'd get shouted down and argued with.


I understand your frustration, but the above seems to read like a sly dig at Janet, even though it might not be. Anyway, let's be fair. If Janet knew Jim for 5 minutes compared to Frank and Babe etc., then I knew Jim for about 10 minutes, compared to Babe, etc. and you knew Jim for about 2 minutes. Comparisons can be so icky, don't you agree? wink.gif

In answer to your frustration, Babe has answered questions in interviews. I believe that once or twice he has been misquoted and misinterpreted. Patricia Butler immediately comes to mind. rolleyes.gif

FYI, a lot of my information about Jim's health in February March 1971 comes from Kathy Lisciandro, who chooses wisely not to post about The Doors or Jim at all. I believe that Frank has also said that Jim was healthy when he left for Paris. You might want to check his interview again.

PS: Your description of the weather in Paris has convinced me to never go there. Thank you for the "heads up."


mewsical
QUOTE (Salli @ Apr 12 2009, 11:36 PM) *
The cause for the bloating could also have been caused by abuse of alcohol.

The following are reasons for making up stories.

1.) Perhaps Rainer was looking for drama and he looked no further than Alain's report. Remember Rainer completely believed Kennealy as well.

2.) According to Alain, on the day Jim died, Alain was the first and only one to mention to the doctors that Jim had had respiratory problems and seen doctors in England and France. Alain was the one who actually translated what Pamela said for the report. Who knows what Pamela actually really definitively said. We only have Alain's word that what he said in his translation to the police is what Pamela said. So, did he translate what she actually said, or did he say what he thought would go over better in order to paint the portrait of a sick man and cover up any suspicion of drugs.

Btw, Alain did agree with Tere Tereba that Jim had lost weight in June 1971.



Jim coughed. He broke a blood vessel in his throat. There was a little blood...my guess is less than a 1/4 teaspoon full, maybe half that. I didn't feel at the time that there was anything to panic about. I've done the same thing myself. That was the only time I saw Jim cough up blood.

Per doctor's instructions, I made sure Jim got the antibiotics he needed when he had a light respiratory infection in October 1970. If I'd left it up to Jim to take the pills on his own, he wouldn't have done it and said so. After a week or so, Jim was feeling fine.

Jim felt pills were for recreational purposes. Downers were recreational. So were uppers. I understand that later he tried heroin to see what it was that attracted Pamela to it. That would have been in 1970 after Jim's Thee Experience days.



I understand your frustration, but the above seems to read like a sly dig at Janet, even though it might not be. Anyway, let's be fair. If Janet knew Jim for 5 minutes compared to Frank and Babe etc., then I knew Jim for about 10 minutes, compared to Babe, etc. and you knew Jim for about 2 minutes. Comparisons can be so icky, don't you agree? wink.gif

In answer to your frustration, Babe has answered questions in interviews. I believe that once or twice he has been misquoted and misinterpreted. Patricia Butler immediately comes to mind. rolleyes.gif

FYI, a lot of my information about Jim's health in February March 1971 comes from Kathy Lisciandro, who chooses wisely not to post about The Doors or Jim at all. I believe that Frank has also said that Jim was healthy when he left for Paris. You might want to check his interview again.

PS: Your description of the weather in Paris has convinced me to never go there. Thank you for the "heads up."


Salli, I knew Jim from late September 1970 to March 1971. That's hardly two minutes. Janet had a ten day fling with him while Pam was in Paris, setting up their new life there. It's not a sly dig, it's much more deliberate than that. I saw her post over at Tom DiCillo's blog, thanks.

I personally don't have much time for anyone who steals someone else's boyfriend, no matter if it's PK or Pam, or what they think the circumstances are. I don't play that way - never have, never will. Perhaps that's why Pam was so nice to me when we met. Unlike Janet and others at the time, I was not interested in a physical relationship with Jim under any circumstances - he was with another woman, and that's enough for me. Besides, after someone assaults you when they're drunk, even if they apologize and you become friends, any other relationship than friends would not be conscionable. After Jim died and my professional relationship with the Doors ended in 1973, apart from working with Rich Linnell on the Red Shift project, I gave no further thought to Jim until Michael Walker interviewed me for his book in 2005. You and Janet apparently have never stopped thinking about him, talking about him, writing about him on various message boards going back about 12 years or so, and so on. You can't let PK alone with her delusion - but let's face it, she did know him, and she was the only one who went immediately to Paris after his death. It's almost as if you and Janet want to completely corner the market on Jim, and anyone who so much as disagrees with you is subjected to ridicule and criticism. Even Frank.

I'm not frustrated that Babe doesn't bother with boards, I wish he could sit down with someone he trusts, maybe Paul, and do an interview the way Frank did with Steve Wheeler. However, as per the latest info from Twilla, that's unlikely to happen.

Now, tell me how you made your diagnosis that Jim broke a blood vessel in his throat? I wasn't aware you had a medical degree. And you consulted a doctor on his behalf? Interesting. Did Jim see the doctor himself with you there?
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (mewsical @ Apr 12 2009, 10:08 AM) *
You're right about the heroin thing - hyperactivity is certainly not one of it's notable effects! He should have crashed out, like Pam did. Sounds like the prednisone could be the culprit here, mixed with Jim's usual alcohol intake, which was really asking for trouble. Don't know when Pam got him to the doctor who prescribed the stuff, but if he'd been taking it for a month or so, plus drinking ...

Sally and Salli you both contribute a great deal to these arguments and you know Jims smiling wherever his spirit roams.
If there was a pregnisone and alcohol interaction for the worse then everything else falls in place following Jim Morrisons death.Pam Morrison of course would think he got into her stash and be guilt ridden vassilating her story until the day she died,plus she would cue Ronay into a heroin coverup scheme.The doctor doesn't do an autopsy because he's privy to info on drugs,the French government will do anything to keep a heroin overdose off there hands,especially a dead American rock star.The Morrison family agree's to a burial in Paris,maybe the Admiral didn't want to expose anymore negative stuff about Jim and surlely he didn't want the body shipped to America for a full autopsy and investigation if it appeared to be a drug overdose from heroin.I belive it's plausable that if Jim took medication from Salli that Pam could also instruct him to take medication.The thing about bloating on booze is it usually effects the whole body not just the face,Morrison has whats described as a moon face,very round and a slim body.
gotothelight
QUOTE (mojosmoothy @ Apr 13 2009, 12:59 PM) *
Sally and Salli you both contribute a great deal to these arguments and you know Jims smiling wherever his spirit roams.
If there was a pregnisone and alcohol interaction for the worse then everything else falls in place following Jim Morrisons death.Pam Morrison of course would think he got into her stash and be guilt ridden vassilating her story until the day she died,plus she would cue Ronay into a heroin coverup scheme.The doctor doesn't do an autopsy because he's privy to info on drugs,the French government will do anything to keep a heroin overdose off there hands,especially a dead American rock star.The Morrison family agree's to a burial in Paris,maybe the Admiral didn't want to expose anymore negative stuff about Jim and surlely he didn't want the body shipped to America for a full autopsy and investigation if it appeared to be a drug overdose from heroin.I belive it's plausable that if Jim took medication from Salli that Pam could also instruct him to take medication.The thing about bloating on booze is it usually effects the whole body not just the face,Morrison has whats described as a moon face,very round and a slim body.


I'm not sure if Morrison's smiling or spinning in his grave. wink.gif

A few points: Pam didn't "think" Jim got into her stash. She said he gave it to him. My point was that even if Jim did some Heroin, that might not have been what ultimately killed him.. although Pamela may have thought it was. With no autopsy, even she wouldn't have known.

I really don't believe the doctor was privy to info on drugs. There were many emergency medical personnel and police there before the doctor. If there was info on drugs to be noted, it would've been in at least one of those reports. I don't think any kind of huge coverup by EMS and police.. or the french government.. ever occurred. Besides, at the time. none of those people knew Jim was a "famous American rock star".

If I remember correctly, the Morrison family did not even know of Jim's death until after he was buried in Pere LeChaise.

I agree that Pamela most certainly could've insisted Jim take prescribed medication. She also could've handed him his medicine each day and made sure he took it, knowing that on his own, he may not have followed through with daily medication.
mojosmoothy
QUOTE (gotothelight @ Apr 13 2009, 10:25 AM) *
I'm not sure if Morrison's smiling or spinning in his grave. wink.gif

A few points: Pam didn't "think" Jim got into her stash. She said he gave it to him. My point was that even if Jim did some Heroin, that might not have been what ultimately killed him.. although Pamela may have thought it was. With no autopsy, even she wouldn't have known.

I really don't believe the doctor was privy to info on drugs. There were many emergency medical personnel and police there before the doctor. If there was info on drugs to be noted, it would've been in at least one of those reports. I don't think any kind of huge coverup by EMS and police.. or the french government.. ever occurred. Besides, at the time. none of those people knew Jim was a "famous American rock star".

If I remember correctly, the Morrison family did not even know of Jim's death until after he was buried in Pere LeChaise.

I agree that Pamela most certainly could've insisted Jim take prescribed medication. She also could've handed him his medicine each day and made sure he took it, knowing that on his own, he may not have followed through with daily medication.

I'm not sure about the timing of Admiral Morrison and family finding out about his death but at this point it's really all irrelivant.As far as drug interactions go,alcohol and pregnisone is much more dangerous than pregnisone and heroin.Morrisons fear of doctors may have served him well until he took advice from doc's overseas,these steroids used to treat asthama can be lethal combined with booze, even if that didn't kill Mojo it's good to know.
mewsical
QUOTE (gotothelight @ Apr 13 2009, 10:25 AM) *
I'm not sure if Morrison's smiling or spinning in his grave. wink.gif

A few points: Pam didn't "think" Jim got into her stash. She said he gave it to him. My point was that even if Jim did some Heroin, that might not have been what ultimately killed him.. although Pamela may have thought it was. With no autopsy, even she wouldn't have known.

I really don't believe the doctor was privy to info on drugs. There were many emergency medical personnel and police there before the doctor. If there was info on drugs to be noted, it would've been in at least one of those reports. I don't think any kind of huge coverup by EMS and police.. or the french government.. ever occurred. Besides, at the time. none of those people knew Jim was a "famous American rock star".

If I remember correctly, the Morrison family did not even know of Jim's death until after he was buried in Pere LeChaise.

I agree that Pamela most certainly could've insisted Jim take prescribed medication. She also could've handed him his medicine each day and made sure he took it, knowing that on his own, he may not have followed through with daily medication.


Spinning, probably! laugh.gif

You're right that the attending doctors probably didn't ask about any medications he might have been on, or at least that has never been suggested by anyone who was there that morning and chose to offer their various versions.

If Jim was hacking about again, and coughing hard enough to break blood vessels or whatever that might have been, then that was some cough he had there, even before he left the dry desert air of Los Angeles. God only knows what he sounded like in damp old Paree. Even Agnes said he sounded like a car with a bad engine. Pam would have been concerned, I'm sure, as would anyone, and like you said, made sure he got his meds as prescribed, even if Robin Wertle had to hand them to him in Pam's absence.

Perhaps, because of the language barrier, Jim/Pam didn't realize that alcohol was a no-no with prednisone. Not that it would have made one iota of difference to Jim. He was unable to stop drinking, no matter what he did. What's that First Step again? "We learned that we were powerless over alcohol."



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