Here's the exact passage from The Doors coffeetable book (Page 218):

The death certificate listed the cause of death as a heart attack. Some early news reports said a sudden case of pneumonia led to the death. Siddons said he knew the exact cause of death but couldn't describe it in official medical terms.
"It was some sort of heart failure", he said, complicated by a possible lung infection.
"Blood probably collected from a clot and worked it's way up to the chest and blocked heart valves. And that caused the heart attack".
Siddons attributed the blood clot to "physical abuse".

And for anyone who doesn't have the book, here's what Pam's mother said. (Same page.. 218):

Mrs Courson doesn't buy the stories about Morrison overdosing. "I have no idea", she said, "and I don't believe Jim would have used heroin;I don't think he would have approved of Pam doing it".
Told that Morrison was known to have disapproved of Pam's use of heroin, her mother nodded. "Right", she said, in a hushed tone.
Still, she doesn't think Morrison died because of drugs.
"It's my feeling, from what I know about medicine, which is considerable - later in life, I worked in a laboratory owned by a great pathologist - I think what happened is that Jim suffered a blood clot to the lung, and that was it."

I am so glad that Bill spoke with Ben about this again. This is what we were told at the label, by Bill, on his return from Paris. I believe it might even have been noted in the telex I received. It would not have behooved Bill to lie about the cause of death to Jac Holzman. We all knew that Jim had an appetite for self-indulgence, but based on his behavior in the months prior to his departure, this would have gone against all of that. He behaved so well at the party, everyone was pleased. We were also hearing that he was doing okay in Paris; we didn't lose touch with him suddenly. I don't believe he used while he was in Paris.
I am sure Pam did - she was an addict. Jim felt he was 'responsible' for Pamela - and to a certain extent, he was also an enabler.

We know for a fact that Jim had at least two HUGE fights with Pamela about her involvement with heroin. Heroin just wasn't cool in those days. It was regarded as a sleazy, negative, street drug. Perhaps Jim thought that by removing her from her heroin sources in L.A., she might change her ways, but he didn't figure the close proximity of the European/North African drug traffickers, or the unsuitable connections she had made in London. What he should have done - hindsight being 20/20 of course - was NOT take her to Paris with him. But he loved her and she wanted to be with him. Talk about your star-crossed lovers!

I know folks find it hard to believe that such a young man would have a heart attack, but Jim did. This is the only explanation that sits well with me, based on my recollection. In those days, Elektra was a family, and Jim was a part of the family. All our artists were part of the family - this would include Carly, Judy, Harry, the guys in Bread, the other guys in the Doors, etc. The Los Angeles office was only about 15 people altogether. We're talking small. New York was even smaller, after they moved the main office to L.A. Jac always used to refer to Elektra as a "Tiffany" label, which I think describes it well. Nothing went on there that everyone didn't know about, up to and including our wonderful maintenance man, Joe Dupree. That's how close the family was in those days. We might have circled the wagons to protect Jim, if there was reason to do so. But we didn't have to. He died of a heart attack, as Bill said. Sad but true.

Thanks, GTTL, for taking the trouble to post these really important comments. Mrs. Courson regarded Jim as a son-in-law, it's obvious, and someone she believed cared very much about her daughter. Not someone who would have encouraged her heroin use, or joined her in it. If a mother believes her daughter was somehow murdered or hurt by a person close to her daughter, she would not have this attitude.

Her later experience with medicine, coupled with anecdotal evidence from Pam, has led her to an inevitable conclusion, which bears out what Bill Siddons learned when he flew to Paris.

I think Jim would want this to be his legacy. Not a drug-induced, stupid rock star death, but a death of natural causes and a resting place in one of the most beautiful cemeteries in the world, surrounded by artists and people who had touched his life.











It's like being buried in an art gallery.

We will never really find the truth behind morrison's death because there was no autopsy performed.

IBy the way isn't there a book called The End: the death of jim morriosn out years ago. If so who was the author?

The book was written by Bob Seymore

Back to the blood clot theory for a moment - Marianne does mention in her recall that Morrison had a bruise on his chest.

And MJ - very nice post. Thanks.

I think Bill Siddons spoke with medical professionals, who supplied their diagnosis. He had a power-of-attorney in that regard, as he was Jim's manager. Others there did not and it would not have been discussed with them.

The actual French documents and the translations are shown in Seymore's book.











Now he is scattered among a hundred cities
And wholly given over to unfamiliar affections,
To find his happiness in another kind of wood
And be punished under a foreign code of conscience.
The words of a dead man
Are modified in the guts of the living.

Her version was corrected by Janet's and both coincided with February 1971.
When Patricia tells the truth I have no problem with her. Since she doesn't do it often major problems often ensue.



December 1970 to July 1971... Seven months from the fall at the Chateau to the day of Jim's death.

Jim had a bruised rib not a broken one and he had bruised muscles. The bruises were gone by February and his injury did not keep him from playing touch football in February.




I would like to point out that Bill said POSSIBLE and PROBABLY. He didn't actually know anything more than the two French doctors who guessed at the cause of death based on what Alain Ronay told them, but originally thought it was drugs.

No Mewsical, clots typically terminate in the lungs, it has to do with the anatomy

yes I agree, this pulmonary embolism/or a hole in the lung is really possible considering the fall which I never knew was as recent to his death as it actually was.
I guess it doesnt mean he wasnt doing drugs, the drugs would have made the condition more likely to be fatal.
Usually,(not always..sometimes it is fatal within minutes) a person becomes so uncomfortable and short of breath with a pulmonary embolism that they have to seek help before it becomes fatal...but as with everything else...when people ae drinking or using drugs they are less likely to notice things and/or less likely to seek help.
It's very possible...that his death was caused by a combination of some of these theories

yes exactly, there is no way possible to know for sure without an autopsy, even a bruise on the chest is more likely to occur before the death...not after or FROM the death.....
I agree that the bruise on the chest is a clue..but I disagree that it indicates heart failure or a heart attack...I have seen hundreds die of both of these conditions.

The bruise on the chest I'm talking about disappeared completely by February 1971.

Since the doctors in France who saw Jim felt Jim was in no real danger AFTER they took xrays of his lungs and reviewed those xrays and then gave him medication for a respiratory problem.....and the fall took place SEVEN MONTHS before Jim died, I don't think the fall had anything to do with his death.

It was a combination of alcohol, heroin, and possibly medication according to a variety of sources.

Dr. Derwin said Jim was in good health when he last saw him.

Who precisely actually said that there was a bruise on Jim's chest when he died?

In her book Marianne NEVER EVEN SAW JIM. NEVER MET JIM. How would she know about any bruise?

You can't have it both ways, Marianne seeing a bruise on a man she'd never met according to her book. See below.



She never saw a bruise, she said.

I thought I read somewhere on this thread that a bruise on his chest was reported by the paramedics, I dont know the original source(or if it's true). even if there was a bruise it's hardly something to base a diagnosis on..
heck, he could have fallen from an overdose and sustained a bruise.
7 months makes a clot from the fall virtually impossible, of course we still couldnt completely rule out a clot..but yes I agree that swings you back to the drugs and alcohol.

the knowledge of a chest x-ray in paris is really helpful Sally..I would assume a doctor would have noticed some scar tissue or evidence of a complication from the pulmonary contusion in December at that point in Paris.

I'll see if I can find the reports.

The first time Jim saw a doctor in France, he was told to stop drinking eat properly get rest and exercise. He ate. He walked a lot. I assume he rested and he did not stop drinking. If he was taking his asthma medication, than the combination of meds and alcohol were dangerous together. Toss the heroin on top of that and it can be a fatal combination.

Found the following:
Derwin saw Jim in 1971 before he went to Paris and Derwin told me essentially the same thing. Unfortunately Butler in ADAD gets the time frame wrong and says Derwin had not seen Jim for over a year. Her information is incorrect.

I also noted that in BOT, Jim's fall was indentified as happening in February 1971. Again that was incorrect. It was December 1970.



I can't find any reference to a red spot on Jim's chest in the official info, so far.

yes, physiologically speaking there is a difference between a pulmonary contusion in feb or dec...the longer from the original trauma the less likely complications later..
so that was an important fact. Thanks.

Sally just out of curiousity...when, if you have to guess, do you think Jim might have started using herion?
In the states?..or do you think it might have been something he started in Paris?(assuming he did, and I think after reading what everyone is saying that he might well have been using herion)

Also, in your opinion, is it true that Jim tried to stop drinking in Paris?

I heard from a close friend of Jim's that he tried it while he lived in Los Angeles and before I met him in October 1970.

I have no idea if Jim actually tried to stop drinking in Paris, or drank less, or more. All I know is he was drinking and if that was combined with his medication it could create a potentially dangerous situation to his health and life. Add the heroin and you have a real problem.

well crap folks, I hate to muck this some more....but for those who are interested
read this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?c...p;dopt=Abstract

what this means for the most part...
Jim could have had reduced lung capacity in july from the pulmonary contusion in december..
however that is different from what I was wondering about before..which was the possiblility of a weakened wall lung..

but clinically this could be very significant....heres how
asthma=reduced lung capacity
history of pneumonia =reduced lung capacity
pulmonary contusion=reduced lung capacity...put those 3 condtions together and you could develop serious problems...relatively quickly


and even with the very helpful knowledge of a chest x-ray in Paris...
unfortunately, reduced lung capacity could not be accurately measured with a chest x-ray in , but that doesnt mean
it wouldnt be VERY enlightening to see the results of that film...fibrosis from the contusion?


this in no way rules out a drug overdose, but what is does say is these conditions could have made Jim
VERY SUSCEPTIBLE to and overdose or even a alcohol overdose, meaning he may not have had to been as intoxicated as one might suppose, meaning it really could have been more accidental than anyone has thought (If it was an overdose)

Could a very small amount of drugs or alcohol killed Jim, because of a very serious lung problems?


now I am starting to think of Jims reported complaints of worsening shortness of breath......was he really begining to feel the convergence of these 3 conditions?
to make matters more complicated...there is now a chance that he could have been developing another serious condition
called "Cor Pulmonale"
I am too tired to go into that tonight....I need to think if that would have been possible in a relatively short amount of time

I still am not sure whether a pulmonary contusion can lead to a hole in the lung wall 7 months later
but with Sallys information...I believe the possibility of a pulmonary clot is very unlikely
hopefully I will run into the trauma surgeon tommorow, I will try and get very accurate information

I will try my best to help you getting to know Jim Morrison's heart and understand him. Maybe even forgive him for some stupid things he might have said and done.

Around the time Jim wrote a letter asking for some money, he and Pam planed a lot of things that they would like to do in the near future. Jim was now conscient that he had sacrificed love (actually I think he was aware of this from the very beginning when he let go of Mary Werbelow) on the behalf of his aspirations as a poet. And this was something that destroyed Jim inside. Because love was important for him. But like he said: you can't travel two roads. In Jim's mind and Jim's logic these were not compatible, he had to choose - in order to be able to be loyal and 'wholeful'.
We are talking of a very intelligent and sensitive human being, never forget this, not for a minute. In secret Jim was jealous of Lennon and Dylan among others, but mostly Lennon and his "give peace a chance" atittude being with Yoko in bed and all that. Only a man of great depth and wisdom would act the way Lennon did back in that time. Jim and Lennon were opposites when it comes to their choice; the late one chose love, the first one sacrificed it.
Jim Morrison perceived this and envied Lennon. Jim knew that the role he had chosen for himself wouldn't make him a happy man after all. Jim knew that he had sacrificed love to show us what it is like to have it all and live on the edge like a real rock and roll star. Jim Morrison embodied that ideal of rebel that every man wants to be at least while he is an adolescent. But this has a price: the sacrifice of love and your love life.
From the very beginning Jim knew that the decision he had made could never fullfill him inside unless he would complete it until the bitter end, which is what he did.

So, around the time Jim wrote a letter asking for some money, he and Pam planned a lot of things that they would like to do in the near future. For some moments Jim believed that it was still possible to recover that love life he had initially sacrificed. In an attempt to gain back their love life and sex life, Jim and Pam tried to clean from heroin. Jim had begun using heroin before the LA woman recording sessions and he kept on using it during the LA Woman recording sessions. This is to say that Jim knew what cold turkey was like when he was in Paris. So he and Pam bought some medication to try and quit the heroin. They did it for 4 or 5 days but Pam was difficult when it came to this, it was a habit for her harder to quit than for Jim. She had been on it longer than Jim and it is said that women have more problems quitting heroin than men (I guess it's because this drug is such an emotional pain killer and women as we know are emotionally more involved with everything than men). Their state of 'cleaness' didn't last long and while Jim was thrilled and excited to get back his sexual life, for Pam it didn't work like that and so she was the one to do the drug again.
In Jim's mind this meant failure and the despair that he was already feeling increased. It was the last drop really.
So now that he was sure he had sacrificed love and his love life (which for him was so important), there was nothing left to do but being loyal to that he started. And so he wrote: "love can not save you from your fate".

In the end Jim was only loyal. And he was loyal till the very end. That's why the words: kata ton aaimona eaytoy.
Ah well, if you like my admiration for Jim Morrison and my enthusiasm when I speak of him, I don't mind sharing my feelings with you.

Because we are talking about a man that I love, a man that I understand and respect even though it was hard for me to finally feel this way for Jim. My feelings for Jim were not always this peaceful and comprehensive. But I love him because he was so sensitive and wild hearted, he was so clever and so genuine. I wish that one day we discuss the possibility of suicide because we all can understand Jim better if we keep an open mind. I would like to know how you think he would have done it. We never discuss this.
You should be open minded when it comes to this, because you will understand Jim Morrison better if you keep perspective. If it was suicide what do you think Jim would have prefered?
An overdose, hanging, pills, jumping from a bridge or what?

Check out this sam bernett Interview-

http://in.reuters.com/article/entertainmen...20?pageNumber=1

Very Interesting what he says, i find this slightly...strange for the lack of a better word

"He said he asked a doctor friend to examine the singer.

"His face was grey, his eyes closed, there was blood under his nose and a white foam around his slightly open mouth and in his beard, he was not breathing," he writes, adding "The doctor was talking of a mortal overdose"

Beard???? Jim didnt have a beard when he died, look at the pics that alain ronay took on june 28th 71.

Maybe bernett is mixed up after all these years or mistaking a couple of days "growth" for a beard?!!.

Any Suggestions?.

Very interesting Stuart.. and you're right... kind of strange as well. From the Ronay photos we've seen, Jim certainly did not have a beard at that time. Now I suppose if he was real hairy guy and could grow a beard virtually overnight, perhaps he did have one when he died.. but I seem to remember reading an account from somewhere (?) that he was cleanshaven...

I can't either at the moment. I just did a quick search and all I came up with was from "The Last Days of Jim Morrison".. for Rolling Stone.. by none other than (arghh) Stephen Davis. Not sure of it's accuracy though. The paragraph is below.

"They found Jim Morrison, dead, still in the bathtub. Blood was still drying under his nose and mouth, as if he had violently hemorrhaged. There were two large and lividly purple bruises on his chest. The bath water was dark pink, as if Jim bled out until his heart stopped. Pamela later said that he looked relaxed for the first time in months, his head turned slightly to his left, a small smile on his lips. "He had such a serene expression," Pamela said. "If it hadn't been for all that blood . . ."

Will see if I can find anything to verify this when I get a chance. I have a dim recollection of reading it elsewhere in some kind of "official" capacity.. but so much has been written and speculated on that it's difficult to recall who said what without researching.

From what I've found already (other than the account from Rolling Stone), "official" reports seem to state that there were no marks or lesions on Morrison's body.

From "Jim and I - Friends until Death".. Alan Ronay

The following quote is attributed to Pam:

""I don't remember. I woke up later in a cold sweat. Jim was not in bed with me. I found him in the bathtub, unconscious. Blood was running down his face, then he had those red marks on the right side of his chest. Suddenly, he began to vomit into the tub. Then, I ran to the kitchen to look for a basin. I went back to him and in the basin I saw little pieces of pineapple that we had for dinner and then blood. I had to empty and wash the basin three times. The third time I noticed a bloodclot. I was so tired and he told me he felt better or something like that, so I went back to bed and fell asleep again."

lung changes following lung contusions....
"Lung contusion is an important cause of focal, usually dense infiltrate. It results from blunt chest trauma, most often from falls or motor vehicle accidents. Usually within hours after trauma, an infiltrate develops deep beneath the impact point, representing blood and edema in the lung. Associated injuries, such as rib fractures and traumatic pneumothorax, may be present. Focal shunting through the area can cause refractory hypoxemia. If the injury is severe enough, the entire area may become necrotic and form a large cavity with irregular inner margins."

now here is my question...was Jim diagnosed with Pneumonia in Paris? anyone know?
because if he was...it could have been misdiagnosed
the cxr was showing an "infiltrate"
but that could have been scarring from the contusion..
these are just questions if anyone knows

It seems that the claim that Jim was more short of breath and had chest pains before his death is well supported

but those symptoms are JUST AS common in serious lung disease or damage as they are in heart attacks
furthermore..as I have stated many times...heart disease(blocked coronary arteries) was the LEAST likely cause of death given Jims age of 27, regardless of the drinking..age can protect you in your 20's even with heavy drinking

all evidence points to lung problems whether acute chronic or in this case, a combination
(along with the possiblility of drug usage or accidental OD) BUT here is the catch..serious lung problems can cause right sided heart FAILURE...this happens because the hign pressure in the lungs causes the right side of the heart to dialate and fail. http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec07/ch074/ch074c.html

this means...that Jim may have been developing heart trouble from his lung conditions.....
but heart failure is different that heart attack

furthermore a symptom of Cor Pulmonale? HICCUPS

Here's what Bill said:

Siddons said he knew the exact cause of death but couldn't describe it in official medical terms. "It was some sort of heart failure", he said, complicated by a possible lung infection.

He then goes on to posit what might have caused the heart failure. Not that it was probably or possibly heart failure. It was heart failure.

If Jim had been in relatively good health, which it certainly sounds like he wasn't, then a small amount of heroin would not have made much difference. I believe it was inevitable that Jim would die of something related to this lung problem, maybe later on, but without having it diagnosed and correctly treated, it was sitting there like a time bomb.

I'm glad we have finally established that Marianne Faithfull has no real knowledge of anything, so we can discount her and her drug-fuddled hearsay once and for all. I am endlessly suspicious of anything any person who is using hard drugs has to say, just on general principle, btw.

Good catch on the beard info, Stu. Another indication that Mr. Bernett has no clue what he's on about.

right...one could make a REAL case for heart failure rather that a heart attack
but my question is
what did that dang chest x-ray show in Paris?

Something that Jim was royally ignoring, imo. Doctors can render their opinions, but it doesn't mean that the patient is going to pay the slightest attention to what they're being told. Jim was also, btw, a smoker and probably was smoking a pack and a half a day. That wasn't helpful, either.

Like Siddons said, physical abuse. And plenty of it. Not just what might or might not have been going on in Paris, but his history of drinking, etc., in L.A.

From the July 30th issue of Time magazine:

Postcards from Paris
Even on a gray day in Paris last week, there was one place you could find a crowd of tourists from places as varied as Rome, Siberia and Orlando, Fla.--Jim Morrison's grave in Père-Lachaise cemetery. Forget Frédéric Chopin, Oscar Wilde, Edith Piaf and the hundreds of other luminaries interred among its chestnut trees. The frontman of the Doors has been the cemetery's headline draw ever since the rock star's untimely death in Paris at the age of 27 in July 1971.

Thirty-six years later, the anniversary of his passing is still one of the cemetery's main events, as fans gather around the tombstone to light candles, sing songs and remember an artist and an era that are still very much alive to them. Earlier this month, the band's keyboardist, Ray Manzarek, and guitarist, Robby Krieger, flew in to mark the day. "People are always interested in his life, and of course his death and his words and music," the Doors' manager, Jeff Jampol, told TIME. "All but his life lives on."

Céline Sauls, a 31-year-old Parisian who emigrated to Orlando 10 years ago, was back to pay her respects. Just before she moved from France, one of the last things she did was to sit atop Morrison's tombstone, tell him about her plans to live in the U.S., and say goodbye.

Such heartfelt individual meditations have taken a collective toll on the cemetery. Vandals long ago dismantled the outsize bust of Morrison that once topped the grave. By then, the grave site had been covered in graffiti by fans. Other tombstones, vandalized with arrows labeled Jim that directed the way to Morrison's grave, have since been wiped clean. Cemetery staff blocked off the plot with metal barricades a few years ago. Asked for directions, a staff member sniffs: "We are a cemetery, not a tourist service."

Père-Lachaise is not just any cemetery. It has been a stage for grand episodes of French history for centuries. Originally a country retreat, it was named after the confessor of King Louis XIV, whose successor expelled the Jesuit priests living there in 1763. It became a cemetery in 1804. Then, in 1871--a century before Morrison's death--Parisian anarchists staged a pitched battle against their foes amid the tombstones; 147 survivors were executed against the cemetery wall and buried in a mass grave.

This French history is in direct competition with an industry of rock nostalgia. One block from the cemetery, a café displays old Doors concert posters in its windows. Florists near the site sell Morrison T shirts for $22, along with wreaths. "I listen to his music all the time," says Olesya Sergeeva, a 21-year-old student from Siberia who is in Paris on a summer work program. She had headed to the cemetery on her first day off from waiting tables at a restaurant in the Eiffel Tower.

New controversy hit this month with the release of a French book titled The End: Jim Morrison. Author Sam Bernett, former manager of the Rock 'n' Roll Circus nightclub, claims that instead of dying of a heart attack in a bathtub--the official police version of his death--Morrison overdosed on heroin on a toilet seat in the club. "I wanted to call the police or rescue people to help," he told TIME. But he was dissuaded by Morrison's drug dealers, he says, who instead had the body brought home to the apartment Morrison had rented, and staged his body in the bathtub. Among those who helped that night was Patrick Chauvel, now a seasoned war photographer. "We carried him in a blanket and got him the hell out of there," Chauvel recalls. "The five or six people who knew, who were there that night, agreed to just forget about it."

But if those witnesses chose to forget, Morrison's fans vividly remember his death, regardless of the circumstances. At Père-Lachaise cemetery, Sergeeva, who was born 15 years after Morrison passed away, shakes her head and says, "His death was such a shock."

I'm kind of shocked this is big enough/interesting enough for Time
& Bernett's has a good publicist.

& how do you know what was in Morrison's heart? As well as what he may have thought of his contemporaries? Or that he & Pam were trying to go cold turkey in Paris?

I understand the point your making. His non-compliance may have been an issue.(probably was!)

What I am trying to do is to give more concrete reasons why he may have dropped dead, with what we seem to be able to prove.

I can tell you that I see 47,57 and 67 year olds in much worse shape than Jim with a LONG history of drug abuse that are still quite alive.

The fact remains, even with poor health, it is statistically VERY rare that a 27 year old just drops dead.
Again, that is from a clinical standpoint, even in 1971.

ok I promised some information about pulmonary contusions and sudden pneumothorax.
I will just keep it simple

yes, a pulmonary contusion can put you at risk later for a pneumothorax (hole in the lung)

but here really is the main point

Jims lung status put him at risk for the following;

sudden death due to a pulmonary embolism (yes I am back to this, but now for different reasons)
sudden death due to a pneumothorax (hole in the lung)
sudden death due to acute Cor pulmonale or right sided heart failure...probably least likely but if cor pulmonale is present it puts him at HIGH RISK for clot or hole in the lung as stated above
suden death due to rupture of the pulmonary artery (very unlikely in a young man, but again due to lung disease and possible right sided heart failure(cor pulmonale))

The lung contusion in December could be tied and have made Jim very susceptible to these above causes of sudden death, AND because of his existing asthma and smoking.

Now you throw in the possibility of any amount of drug or alcohol and you begin to see how this could happen
from a CLINICAL standpoint

hope that makes sense

It does. And goes with what Bill Siddons was told and what Mrs. Courson has deduced from her own medical training. Thanks for doing all the research.

no problem,
thanks for all your good posts

There was no lung puncture. Read the following.

I know there was no puncture in that lung when he left for Paris...
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying Salli,
maybe I am not saying it well


I dont know how a doctor in 1970 can say without a shadow of a doubt that a lung contusion could not LATER cause some complications..unless that wasnt well known knowledge at that time. In fairness to the doctor, Trauma medicine is far more advanced today than in the 70's. A rib fracture and a "lung bruise" from a fall is a trauma event. Thats why I provided the study on patients with pulmonary contusion from traumas

What he is saying in that paragraph is contrary to what I am reading and what I have been told today by physicians

I am just saying the lung contusion could have made him more susceptable to respiratory problems including clots
and pneumothorax,
not that it did...but that it could

I think I will await the thoughts of the trauma surgeon myself. I also don't understand why it matters if Jim died because of complications from a lung injury which, coupled with his general whoop-de-do lifestyle, brought on heart failure. The idea is to get to the truth, isn't it?

So far, we have Siddons, Mrs. Courson, medical research, Alain Ronay's anecdotal recall of Jim having breathing problems, etc., in the weeks prior to his passing, plus visits to doctors in Paris and a chest x-ray - why, pray tell? Because he had recently experienced a fairly significant fall from a second story window onto a hard pavement. Second story is about - what - 20 feet up? If we're talking those windows on the Chateau that front onto Sunset, that's one hell of a fall. And he hits an awning frame on the way down. I don't know why Dr. Derwin was speaking with anyone about his patient, honestly, so I have to respectfully suggest that this information must be treated as suspect.

My Dad was a doctor, I have three cousins who are doctors, and a second cousin who is a doctor. I work in med-legal. We have HIPAA laws in place now, to protect patient privacy, but even so, as a medical professional, you do NOT discuss the health of any patient, past or present, without power of attorney. Siddons had power of attorney, so the doctors could discuss their diagnosis with him, and they would have discussed it with Jim's immediate family. And, although I have no way of knowing, the label might have had insurance on Jim. That was pretty common in those days. They would not have paid off in the event of drug abuse. Elektra was content with Bill's explanation.

All very good and valid points. by the way I did ask the trauma surgeon and a pulmonary contusion can cause complications months later...if you know doctors mewsical you should ask around too. I wouldnt expect anyone to just take my word for it

I guess only thing I was trying to find out is .....could that significant fall have led to or contributed to his death 7 months later, applying todays knowledge of trauma medicine??? it appears it could have with or without cor pulmonale(right-sided heart failure).

and as I said before I agree that life-style, probably played a role as well
and drugs could have played a role

drugs+lifestyle+decreased lung capacity could easily have led to sudden death.
I realize it's just another theory, I just wanted to poke around to see what possibilities came up.

At least with legal priviledge, it does not survive the death of the client, i.e. if a lawyer's client dies the lawyer-client priviledge dies too.

I had bernett's book in paris but lost it while drunk! oops!

Privilege then extends to the client's family. The client's family can WAIVE privilege in writing, as indeed can the client. A good case in point would be this recent business with Sara Caplan, Phil Spector's former counsel. All Phil had to do was waive privilege, but he seemed to think it was more appropriate that she be faced with the possibility of jail than to waive privilege. In all likelihood, he was not advised he had that right, of course.

I think a copy of Stephen Davis' book would be good to have in the bathroom. In case a person runs out of toilet paper.

Let's have a look at the Chateau Marmont, where Jim fell from a second story window onto the pavement. As you can see, this is a considerable distance. He was lucky he didn't suffer a broken bone or two.

Lawyer Client privilege does survive the death of a client. Doctor patient confidentiality postumously has been subject to Freedom of Information and court rulings.

Jim was in a poolside bungalow, not the main building. The bungalows are two-story and he fell into an awning and then to the ground.

Next theory that distorts the facts, please.

I believe I have IAwoman's and Mewsical's points of view confused.
Mewsical seems to be arguing only for the lung complication as a cause of death. Iawoman seems to be open to a combination of factors.

I believe that Mewsical is expressing a viewpoint that would dismiss the heroin related death and that comes from a misunderstanding of the whole situation. Mewsical's argument is based on the words of:
- a 19-year-old (inexperienced in medical jargon) manager who did not see the body and took the doctor's record of death as gospel,
- a friend who stated that Jim was having health problems that others who saw Jim did not necessarily notice or agree with, nor did they notice the daily presence of that friend btw,
- a mother who refused to acknowledge that her daughter even took heroin until sometime in the last year or two,
- the fact that the lung xrays taken by the doctor in Paris showed no cause for alarm and the condition required only oral medication and no hospitalization or follow up treatment.

Since that fall at the Chateau from one of the second story bungalows caused pain, Jim did not ignore the trauma-injury. He went to the doctor to be checked.
Jim had tests.
Jim had xrays.

The results were that Jim bruised his ribs, his muscles between the ribs and the skin and he had a small bruise to the exterior of the lung muscle. He had the bruise in December to prove it. At least that's the story I got from Jim when I saw the bruise. I also was told by others at the time that it happened, and years later I was told the same thing by Dr. Derwin.

By February 1971 that bruise was gone, the ribs no longer hurt and Jim was healthy enough to play a game of tag football with his friends at the end of that month.

In February 1971, there was no fall at the Chateau as Jim had checked out and was at Norton Ave. (Sources: K. Lisciandro, Jo TTanna, Danny Sugerman, Janet Erwin and Patricia Kennealy.) The last two sources had a clear and prolonged look at Jim's chest area (which covers the lung-rib region) and reported that he looked fine and was healthy.

It is highly unlikely that a blood clot would form from an exterior to the lung tissue contusion in a trauma suffered seven months earlier.

What made Jim susceptible to respiratory problems was his life style, his lack of follow through on his medications, his two-pack a day cigarette habit, his alcoholism, his reported extra-legal drug use in Paris, and any untreated asthma or upper respiratory viral and bachterial infections (ie, tracheitis, bronchitis).

Since we do not know positively that Jim had a respiratory infection just before he died, that is speculation.

It was reported that Alain Ronay was not around as much as he claimed, which makes Alain's testimoney on this account questionable.

What is not questionable is that Jim was reported buying heroin for Pamela, Jim tried the heroin, and that Pamela remained firmly convinced until she died that in some way her heroin killed Jim.

No, here is what Bill said. Note the Probably and Possible and the issue in this thread is not did Jim have a heart failure or attack of some kind, but what the actual contributory cause of death was, infection or heroin, or both.


No, even if Jim had been in good health the combination of alcohol and heroin could have killed him far more surely than just a small dose of heroin alone.



No, we have not established anything. You may chose to discount her recollections, but I do not and neither does John Densmore's book galleys. Her recollections closer to the date of Jim's death were not exactly what she wrote in her book.

Glad you are suspicious of anything a person on drugs has to say. I am also suspicious of many things people say when they are not on drugs.



Jim's beard could get a good 1/2 inch growth in about three days time.