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mewsical
Marianne says that she ended up in Paris with Jean and that she did not meet Morrison. So, surely anything else she had to say would have to be hearsay. She says she was in 'bad shape.' She also says that she has become part of the mythology. If she did not meet Jim, was in bad shape, and uses the word mythology, that's three out of three for me.

I spoke with Bill when he got back from Paris. He told us all it was heart failure. That was also what he indicated in the telex. Why would he lie? He certainly wasn't interested in protecting anyone from criminal prosecution, if it was appropriate. I don't understand the motives for a cover-up. So - Jim died of an overdose, from bad heroin he bought in a local night club from two unidentified men who are nowhere to be found. And? What does that prove exactly?
Ia woman
some times things get lost in translation on message boards....
I feel like mewsical and I were just looking at the fact that an injury and life style could have contributed

I respect mewsical and sallys input!

thanks guys!
MO2826
If there was a cover-up, which I think most of you agree with, then 80% of what's been said is not true. And that means you are building your theories not based on facts but distractors. And if you begin a theory based on wrong and twisted information it's obvious that you will never get there, to the truth. And here is one:

It's not possible that Jim died of an heroin overdose. It's not possible. Why?
Simply because you can't overdose smoking heroin. And although Jim started using heroin in the states and he began to snort it, in Paris that's not how he was using the drug. In Paris Jim learned a new technique that allowed him to smoke it. Jim was smoking heroin in Paris, not snorting it. And like I said previously, you can't overdose on heroin if you are smoking it. Because you fall sleep.


"Heroin can be administered in a number of ways, including snorting and injection. It may also be smoked by inhaling the vapors produced when heated (known as "chasing the dragon").
Large doses of heroin can be fatal. The drug can be used for suicide or, as in the case of Sigmund Freud, physician-assisted suicide. But not when smoked." - in wikipedia Heroin History
PTLWP
A one page feature regarding this topic was in Time magazine this week.
Salli
QUOTE(Ia woman @ Jul 22 2007, 10:56 PM) [snapback]17935[/snapback]
some times things get lost in translation on message boards....
I feel like mewsical and I were just looking at the fact that an injury and life style could have contributed

I respect mewsical and sallys input!

thanks guys!



Glad you respect Mewsical-Sally's input, but that is the input of one person.

I spell my name SALLI. I have for decades.

Mewsical-SALLY and I are definitely not the same person.

We do not agree at all on the cause of Jim's death, any more than Danny or Pamela or Marianne or John Densmore would agree with Mewsical's views on Jim's death.
Salli
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 22 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]17937[/snapback]
If there was a cover-up, which I think most of you agree with, then 80% of what's been said is not true. And that means you are building your theories not based on facts but distractors. And if you begin a theory based on wrong and twisted information it's obvious that you will never get there, to the truth. And here is one:

It's not possible that Jim died of an heroin overdose. It's not possible. Why?
Simply because you can't overdose smoking heroin. And although Jim started using heroin in the states and he began to snort it, in Paris that's not how he was using the drug. In Paris Jim learned a new technique that allowed him to smoke it. Jim was smoking heroin in Paris, not snorting it. And like I said previously, you can't overdose on heroin if you are smoking it. Because you fall sleep.
"Heroin can be administered in a number of ways, including snorting and injection. It may also be smoked by inhaling the vapors produced when heated (known as "chasing the dragon").
Large doses of heroin can be fatal. The drug can be used for suicide or, as in the case of Sigmund Freud, physician-assisted suicide. But not when smoked." - in wikipedia Heroin History


And of course you were there. rolleyes.gif

I was told Jim snorted the drug that night.

BTW, you can die of smoking heroin. It just depends on the state of your body and the state of the other drugs you may have taken and how much you smoke. Heroin still depresses the breathing, no matter how it is taken.
Ia woman
QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 22 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]17939[/snapback]
Glad you respect Mewsical-Sally's input, but that is the input of one person.

I spell my name SALLI. I have for decades.

Mewsical-SALLY and I are definitely not the same person.

We do not agree at all on the cause of Jim's death, any more than Danny or Pamela or Marianne or John Densmore would agree with Mewsical's views on Jim's death.



I believe I said Mewsical and Salli's input...I dont know how that infers you are one person
and I wrote that quickly so I spelled your name wrong.

Not sure why you are seemingly upset with me

clinical things are of interest to me, because it's what I do for a living
it's not my intent to offend


(except for worm man...lol!)
MO2826
QUOTE(jym @ Jul 21 2007, 09:31 AM) [snapback]17864[/snapback]
& how do you know what was in Morrison's heart? As well as what he may have thought of his contemporaries? Or that he & Pam were trying to go cold turkey in Paris?


Well Jym, I have my sources - like a couple of people who post here at John's board, they also have their own sources which they don't reveal. I wrote that post based on a few pages that I was sent by an author who is writing a story about a famous american poet who died at the age of 27 in Paris. I feel privileged to be one of the few people who has read some passages of this story. And from what I read this story provides an amazing insight into the mind and heart of Jim Morrison. The story is called "The Paradise" and it tells, or if you prefer speculates, about the frame of mind the poet was in during his last days in Paris. The story is written from the perspective of the poet himself. Here's another short passage from this story:

"He paid the bill and sneaked away into the twilight. This is when the cars return. The evening falls covering the sky like a purple poppy red at the centre. Traffic lights, the boats in the Seine float like shadows on the water wink. Up and down, up and down, smooth. As he walks along the river we continue to hear his thoughts:
'Ha! There is it, the garden. There where cats breed on the loose and man keeps a memory of his destiny (or freedom, but man doesn’t know that). The garden of tombstones and stone angels watches over the cold cool confidence of the dead. I’m going there to these crumbs of immortality, chunk of land where peace abides, freezes over. Let’s cross the street and enter. The gates are open.'
He crossed the street. 'Trapped in a tight ass my joy has turned to excrement!' - he exclaimed, shouting at the cars and laughing for the first time in 40 hours. It was decided, tonight it will be. His brain had chosen the day with celestial precision telling of events to come. He felt confident, and his heart began to hope again. He stopped hurring and worrying, the plan cheered him up.
He enters the cemetery for the third time this week and he walks to his favourite place: the three trunk tree, at the bottom end on the right. Still holding a notebook and the pen in his hand he sat there on the grass in the little hill that gave him the benefit of a view over the substance and succulence of the dead."


The format in which the author is writing "The Paradise" resembles Edgar Allan Poe short stories. Some passages are poetically sublime and the magic is everywhere, sweating in every pore of every word. This short story together with another 3 ("The Jungle", "Trilogy" and another) are all directly related to "The Paradise" (the second on the book whose title is not defined yet according to what the author told me).

QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 22 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]17940[/snapback]
And of course you were there. rolleyes.gif


Well you never know, maybe I was
in another incarnation perhaps rolleyes.gif

Maybe I was the Count, that villain who could have become a human being had he survived - like Marienne faithful said. Ah! Marienne Faithfull. The one who says she never met Jim Morrison. However, I have a strong feeling that she is lying. But aren't they all?
I think she saw Jim at least 2 times but I could be wrong and maybe she really didn't meet Jim, only saw him dead; and seeing a dead person is not exactly meeting him. And if this was it then she is not lying.
Imagine for example that unlike what she says, she didn't stay in the apartment waiting for the count to come back. Instead she went with him to Jim's apartment to drop Pam after a party that Jim didn't go to. And when they got there they saw Jim dead. I have a feeling this might be what happened. The other scenario is that she met Jim once and then a second time when Jim was dead.
And so it's obvious to me why she denies having seen Jim Morrison: "I had nothing to do with this guy death. Why should I involve myself in this if I had nothing to do with what happened? I saw him dead yes, but if I admit this they will come for me and ask me questions, and if there is one thing I don't need at this moment of my life and career is to be wrongly associated with this guy's death. I was at the right place in the wrong time. Pam, can you please forget that I was here? You know how they are, and you know that it's unnecessary to say that I was here when we came to take you home."

QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 22 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]17940[/snapback]
I was told Jim snorted the drug that night.


This could be a distractor: that Jim snorted heroin that night. Because if you had been told that Jim was smoking heroin, not snorting it, while he was in Paris, then the chances for him to have died of a heroin overdose would drastically decrease. So this snort of heroin was needed to assure the overdose theory.
Jim loved smoking, he enjoyed smoking. It's a kind of pleasure many of us feel, inhaling smoke.
If lies and misinformation have been a constant regarding Jim's death, then this information might well be one of them. And so far it has worked out perfectly because while the people think that Jim snorted the drug that night, they don't think of other possibilities - and the truth might be hid in these other possibilities. So yes, to say that Jim snorted it that night is perfect to deviate the fan's attention.

But okay, I am an open-minded person and I don't exclude the possibility that Jim snorted it, although I'm almost sure that as soon as Jim found out that he could use the drug by smoking it, he prefered inhaling its vapours than snorting it.

Salli, we know Jim liked coke and we know he snorted it. But do you know if Jim also smoked it in a water pipe? I have a feeling Jim liked to smoke it on a water pipe. And so Jim might have enjoyed smoking heroin on a water pipe also. Or on foil. But does anyone know when the foil method began and was introduced to addicts who had panic of needles (which is my case)? And where did smoking heroin on foil began? In France? Italy? Holland? or the USA? How old smoking heroin on foil is?

This is a question that I have been asking myself for about 10 years. Because I don't like snorting (maybe this is a phobia I got from some kind of trauma), my right nostril is almost closed and if it wasn't the foil method I would have never used heroin because I faint at the sight of needles. I don't know how doctors and nurses took blood from me when I needed to make blood tests. Once I fainted at the hospital and every time I need to make blood tests I can't sleep the night before.
If any of you can help with some historical information on the foil method, please share it with us or post a link.

QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 22 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]17940[/snapback]
BTW, you can die of smoking heroin. It just depends on the state of your body and the state of the other drugs you may have taken and how much you smoke. Heroin still depresses the breathing, no matter how it is taken.


True, heroin depresses the breathing but exactly because it depresses the breathing you fall asleep in the meantime. Many times I fell asleep with the foil on my hand, and if you are sleeping, how can you keep on smoking? And thus, how can you die?
I took heroin for almost 13 years and I was drinking heavily during that time as well. So heavily that now I have a disease provoked by excess of drinking. How heavily was I drinking? Real heavy, if you take in consideration that I was not in a good shape. And this means that I was very thin, weak and nervous system almost collapsing. I was drinking heavily. I used to drink without eating, heroin for breakfast, whisky for lunch, heroin again, then whisky for tea and more of each for dinner. All this without anything in my stomach - add to that 2 packs of cigarretes a day and you will conclude that MO2826 was running on heavy fuel. But, as you can see, I didn't die.
I don't mean to say that I abused it all more than Jim, but one also has to see things in proportion to each person physical constitution, there are a number of factors to be taken into account if you wish to make a comparison, factors such as: weight and height, eating etc.
Back then I was physically very fragile and although Jim abused substances a lot, I believe that at least Jim ate better than I did during that period of my life.
I used to wake up at 7.30 am, or 10 am - depending on the days and my schedule at school - and very often my first meal would be around 11 pm.
Salli, I'm sure you agree that I was leading a real heavy lifestyle.

Yes I know, I was crazy and I destroyed my health. Now, after 20 years of drug and alcohol abuse I have my remedy: a disease that doesn't allow me to drink not even a single beer. But I am learning to look upon my illness as a blessing, because now my lifestyle has changed, definitely. And deep down inside I know I chose this disease, back when I was up there looking upon my life, maybe.


QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 17 2007, 12:56 PM) [snapback]17679[/snapback]
The only way his death defines him is to identify the frame of mind he was in when he died and the mind set of the people around him.


Very true Salli. Very true. And that's exactly why the truth about Jim's death is important. I'm sure that Jim never wanted all this secrecy around his death. I am sure he wouldn't like it. He would feel sad and mad, crushed at heart, to know they have lied. Because in a certain sense it's like spitting on him and preventing the fans to know of the darkness he was feeling back then. If he was here now he most probably would say with bitter agony and extreme disappointment: "A testimony laid to waste".


"When my ugly big car won't climb this hill,
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill
'cos if you wanna run cool, if you wanna run cool
yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run
on heavy, heavy fuel"

- heavy fuel Dire Straits

Three songs in the On every street album seem to be a sort of "tribute" to some dead musicians such as Elvis - the only rocker who is directly mentioned in the song "Calling Elvis".
But in other songs like "On every street" and "Heavy fuel", Mark Knoffler seems to be talking about two other dead musicians. And a few times I've thought that "Heavy fuel" could be about Jim Morrison.

"I love the babes, don't get me wrong
hey, that's why I wrote this song."


Babes are a reference to women, true, but it can also be reference to a person, in a very subtle way. How about... Babe Hill?
It's possible.
And the lines: "When my ugly big car won't climb this hill / I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill" are far from being innocent, and so it's possible that Mark got the inspiration for these lines while thinking of someone in particular, someone in the music scene.

mewsical
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 22 2007, 03:04 PM) [snapback]17937[/snapback]
If there was a cover-up, which I think most of you agree with, then 80% of what's been said is not true. And that means you are building your theories not based on facts but distractors. And if you begin a theory based on wrong and twisted information it's obvious that you will never get there, to the truth. And here is one:

It's not possible that Jim died of an heroin overdose. It's not possible. Why?
Simply because you can't overdose smoking heroin. And although Jim started using heroin in the states and he began to snort it, in Paris that's not how he was using the drug. In Paris Jim learned a new technique that allowed him to smoke it. Jim was smoking heroin in Paris, not snorting it. And like I said previously, you can't overdose on heroin if you are smoking it. Because you fall sleep.
"Heroin can be administered in a number of ways, including snorting and injection. It may also be smoked by inhaling the vapors produced when heated (known as "chasing the dragon").
Large doses of heroin can be fatal. The drug can be used for suicide or, as in the case of Sigmund Freud, physician-assisted suicide. But not when smoked." - in wikipedia Heroin History


Although I disagree with a cover-up, which would imply that ANY of these people had a half a brain, good point. Chasing the dragon in the loo seems a tiny bit inconvenient. Surely he could have flagged a cab and gone home for that one.

Salli
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 23 2007, 03:27 AM) [snapback]17957[/snapback]
Although I disagree with a cover-up, which would imply that ANY of these people had a half a brain, good point. Chasing the dragon in the loo seems a tiny bit inconvenient. Surely he could have flagged a cab and gone home for that one.


A cab? Or not?
Salli
QUOTE(Ia woman @ Jul 23 2007, 01:16 AM) [snapback]17945[/snapback]
I believe I said Mewsical and Salli's input...I dont know how that infers you are one person
and I wrote that quickly so I spelled your name wrong.

Not sure why you are seemingly upset with me

clinical things are of interest to me, because it's what I do for a living
it's not my intent to offend
(except for worm man...lol!)


You did spell my name with a "Y".

I corrected you because recently Mewsical and I had a problem with a member of this board who swore we were only one person and not the two that we are. Sally has had to point out several times that we spell our names differently and we are two individuals, not one.

I was simply specifying spelling and individuality.

I'm not upset with you.

What do you do for a living? You can PM me if you like. Over the years I've had to do a great deal of medical research in the fields of oncology, cardiology, respiratory function and other areas. Helped at one point with a book on strokes and testing results on medical treatment for them.
Stuart
The Rock n Roll circus building is up for rent my friend told me in paris.
Stuart
Here is another pic of Mr Sam Bernett(on the left)-

http://festivalbdlexy54.oldiblog.com/sites...oto_1262166.jpg

About the"Beard" issue, it's quite possible bernett made a mistake or jim had some facial growth. either way i do believe what he says about jim in the rock n roll circus to be true
jym
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 22 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]17956[/snapback]
Well Jym, I have my sources - like a couple of people who post here at John's board, they also have their own sources which they don't reveal. I wrote that post based on a few pages that I was sent by an author who is writing a story about a famous american poet who died at the age of 27 in Paris. I feel privileged to be one of the few people who has read some passages of this story. And from what I read this story provides an amazing insight into the mind and heart of Jim Morrison. The story is called "The Paradise" and it tells, or if you prefer speculates, about the frame of mind the poet was in during his last days in Paris. The story is written from the perspective of the poet himself. Here's another short passage from this story:

"He paid the bill and sneaked away into the twilight. This is when the cars return. The evening falls covering the sky like a purple poppy red at the centre. Traffic lights, the boats in the Seine float like shadows on the water wink. Up and down, up and down, smooth. As he walks along the river we continue to hear his thoughts:
'Ha! There is it, the garden. There where cats breed on the loose and man keeps a memory of his destiny (or freedom, but man doesn’t know that). The garden of tombstones and stone angels watches over the cold cool confidence of the dead. I’m going there to these crumbs of immortality, chunk of land where peace abides, freezes over. Let’s cross the street and enter. The gates are open.'
He crossed the street. 'Trapped in a tight ass my joy has turned to excrement!' - he exclaimed, shouting at the cars and laughing for the first time in 40 hours. It was decided, tonight it will be. His brain had chosen the day with celestial precision telling of events to come. He felt confident, and his heart began to hope again. He stopped hurring and worrying, the plan cheered him up.
He enters the cemetery for the third time this week and he walks to his favourite place: the three trunk tree, at the bottom end on the right. Still holding a notebook and the pen in his hand he sat there on the grass in the little hill that gave him the benefit of a view over the substance and succulence of the dead."


The format in which the author is writing "The Paradise" resembles Edgar Allan Poe short stories. Some passages are poetically sublime and the magic is everywhere, sweating in every pore of every word. This short story together with another 3 ("The Jungle", "Trilogy" and another) are all directly related to "The Paradise" (the second on the book whose title is not defined yet according to what the author told me).
Well you never know, maybe I was
in another incarnation perhaps rolleyes.gif


Well, the other people who knew Jim are known, not anonymous, as is their relationship with Jim. If your friend has written a book about Jim fine, but what's that person's association with Jim, if it's non-fiction then the provenance is utmost. If it's fiction well, it's anybody's guess as to what was in Jim's heart or any of the above questions, but if it is fiction it should stated as so, not as fact. I guess a proviso would be historical fiction that usually draws on people who knew the subject or diaries, writings etc. Just prove you have some provenance to comment on these things & we'll listen. As for being an reincarnate, well that's about the response I expected.
DeadAsADoorNail
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 22 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]17934[/snapback]
Marianne says that she ended up in Paris with Jean and that she did not meet Morrison. So, surely anything else she had to say would have to be hearsay. She says she was in 'bad shape.' She also says that she has become part of the mythology. If she did not meet Jim, was in bad shape, and uses the word mythology, that's three out of three for me.

I spoke with Bill when he got back from Paris. He told us all it was heart failure. That was also what he indicated in the telex. Why would he lie? He certainly wasn't interested in protecting anyone from criminal prosecution, if it was appropriate. I don't understand the motives for a cover-up. So - Jim died of an overdose, from bad heroin he bought in a local night club from two unidentified men who are nowhere to be found. And? What does that prove exactly?


If Jim had died of unnatural causes, then Siddons, and all parties involved would have wanted a criminal investigation if it came to be that Jim succumbed to foul play.

The insult behind Sam Bernett's story is he NEVER claimed or alluded that the two drugs dealers (were they underworld criminals?) forced him to keep his mouth shut about Jim's death. There is no indication of that Barret was threaten to keep silent or suffer consequences. For that he is a cold blooded coward. Why did he wait so long to divulge his hoax of a story? His account reads like an episode out of The Sopranos.
mewsical
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 23 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]18025[/snapback]
If Jim had died of unnatural causes, then Siddons, and all parties involved would have wanted a criminal investigation if it came to be that Jim succumbed to foul play.

The insult behind Sam Bernett's story is he NEVER claimed or alluded that the two drugs dealers (were they underworld criminals?) forced him to keep his mouth shut about Jim's death. There is no indication of that Barret was threaten to keep silent or suffer consequences. For that he is a cold blooded coward. Why did he wait so long to divulge his hoax of a story? His account reads like an episode out of The Sopranos.


It's an assumption what Bill and all parties involved would have wanted. The Admiral and Mrs. Morrison saw no point in leaving for Paris from Guam, as Jim was already buried when they got the news. They did not dispute the medical findings. Neither did anyone else in his family.

If Jim bought heroin and used heroin - which had not been established at that time - that is not a criminal act, per se, because he died. And the doctor said the death was natural. Try and put yourself in Bill's place for a moment. What are you going to do? Stand there and argue with a medical professional while the body is packed in its coffin and the burial is scheduled? And a French medical professional at that, who doesn't speak English and you don't speak French? Bill had access to lawyers in the States, notably John Frankenheimer, and I cannot imagine that he didn't speak with Jac Holzman as well.

The insurance companies who held policies on Jim's life paid off without a murmur. Insurance adjusters are notoriously suspicious, yet they accepted the medical findings as well.
jym
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 24 2007, 10:20 AM) [snapback]18055[/snapback]
The insurance companies who held policies on Jim's life paid off without a murmur. Insurance adjusters are notoriously suspicious, yet they accepted the medical findings as well.


Good point! Wish I had thought of it. There's a group that won't let go if they think they hold onto a pay out.
mewsical
QUOTE(jym @ Jul 24 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]18077[/snapback]
Good point! Wish I had thought of it. There's a group that won't let go if they think they hold onto a pay out.


This is pure speculation, but it's likely that they had investigators in France speak with the doctors, etc., just to ensure that there was nothing suspicious about Jim's death.
Salli
If there was an investigation, the doctors would have to stick by their verdict as their conclusions had became a matter of official record.

Whether the way Jim died was the truth or not, when everyone immediately concerned with the death, managment, record company, doctors, and French death records all stipulate to death by heart attack or heart failure, than the insurance company has no reason not to pay off the insurance claim.

If you want the money you claim natural death or whatever else pays off on the deceased insured person.
Stuart
Sam Bernett Interview on U.S TV-

http://www.wmtw.com/video/13668646/index.h...urce=ext_stream
Ia woman
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 22 2007, 05:04 PM) [snapback]17937[/snapback]
If there was a cover-up, which I think most of you agree with, then 80% of what's been said is not true. And that means you are building your theories not based on facts but distractors. And if you begin a theory based on wrong and twisted information it's obvious that you will never get there, to the truth. And here is one:

It's not possible that Jim died of an heroin overdose. It's not possible. Why?
Simply because you can't overdose smoking heroin. And although Jim started using heroin in the states and he began to snort it, in Paris that's not how he was using the drug. In Paris Jim learned a new technique that allowed him to smoke it. Jim was smoking heroin in Paris, not snorting it. And like I said previously, you can't overdose on heroin if you are smoking it. Because you fall sleep.
"Heroin can be administered in a number of ways, including snorting and injection. It may also be smoked by inhaling the vapors produced when heated (known as "chasing the dragon").
Large doses of heroin can be fatal. The drug can be used for suicide or, as in the case of Sigmund Freud, physician-assisted suicide. But not when smoked." - in wikipedia Heroin History

just out of curiousty, how do you know he was smoking it?

oops just noticed you already answered that question..nevermind
MO2826
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 17 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]17661[/snapback]
Along with Pam, Ronay, and Varda.. Bill Siddons was also at Jim's "funeral", and so was a lady named Robyn (her last name escapes me at this moment.. but I think she was Jim's secretary...?)


Can anyone tell me a little bit more about this person named Robyn?
What do you mean please, when you say she was Jim's secretary?
Why would Jim need a secretary for?
Very interesting.
Is this fact or just speculation, that Jim had a secretary in Paris?

Also, does anyone know if this club, rock and roll circus, was on the other side of the river from where Jim lived?
And at what time did the club open every night? Or was it open during the day as well?

Thank you for any insight you might bring upon this subject.
mewsical
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 29 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]18250[/snapback]
Can anyone tell me a little bit more about this person named Robyn?
What do you mean please, when you say she was Jim's secretary?
Why would Jim need a secretary for?
Very interesting.
Is this fact or just speculation, that Jim had a secretary in Paris?

Also, does anyone know if this club, rock and roll circus, was on the other side of the river from where Jim lived?
And at what time did the club open every night? Or was it open during the day as well?

Thank you for any insight you might bring upon this subject.


Her name was Robin Wertle, a French-speaking Canadian. She was hired by Jim to take care of daily details for him, as he and Pamela did not speak French.

More about Jim's days in Paris here - some have issues with its details:

Rainier Modderman account.
rotaryperception
New story, it says Morrison drank vodka.. What do you think?

Mystery over Jim Morrison's death divides biographers by Claire Rosemberg
Thu Jul 26, 6:28 AM ET

PARIS (AFP) - Did Jim Morrison OD on a nightclub toilet or die of a drug-induced heart attack in a bathtub at home? Thirty-six years after the death in Paris of The Doors legend, biographers are locking horns over his final hours.

The latest book on the life and times of the 1960s rock star, published this month in Paris, says Morrison was found slumped behind a locked toilet door on July 3 1971, in the Rock'n Roll Circus -- a club that in its heyday rocked to the sounds of Pink Floyd, Cat Stevens, the Beach Boys and Eric Clapton.

This version of the so-called Lizard King's final hours has angered the author of another 2007 book on the singer-cum-poet-cum-filmmaker.

"He is diminishing a great poet and songwriter," US author Philip Steele said of Sam Bernett's just-published "The End".

"He's trashing him," said Steele, whose biographical novel about Morrison
, "City of Light", was published in Germany last February.

Not so, retorted Bernett, a writer and former journalist and nightclub operator who was then the 23-year-old manager of the Rock'n Roll Circus. "I'm not tarnishing anything, I'm simply telling the truth" he told AFP.

Bernett says in his book that on the night of July 2-3, 27-year-old Morrison turned up after midnight, binged on vodka and beer, bought a dose of heroine intended for his girlfriend and disappeared into the men's room.

When Bernett, the bouncer and the cloakroom attendant forced open the toilet door, "Jim Morrison is there, his head betwen his knees, his arms hanging,"
Bernett writes.

"I raised his head gently, holding him by the shoulders to stop him falling over. His face was grey, his eyes shut, there was blood under his nose, and whitish dribble like froth around his slightly open mouth and in his beard."

Among those who rushed to the scene were two dealers believed to have sold Morrison drugs and a doctor Bernett knew who was at the club that night. The dealers, unphased, decreed the singer was alive but faint.

And when the doctor, who is unnamed in the book, pronounced him dead, probably of heart failure, the two took matters into their own hands, dragging the unconscious singer, with difficulty, out through a back door leading into an empty nightclub that backed onto the now defunct Rock'n Roll Circus, on Paris' hip Left Bank.

How they got Morrison back to his home -- where they threw him in a hot bath in a failed attempt to revive him as his hysterical girlfriend looked on -- Bernett does not know.

Another witness, contacted by AFP, said Morrison was exited from the club rolled up in a blanket.

"He had a malaise in the toilets and I helped carry him," said war photographer Patrice Chauvel, who, then aged 19, worked in the club. "I don't know if he was dead. Maybe he died at home. They announced his death the next day, or perhaps the day after, I don't remember."

"He was overweight, bearded, violent and a bit delirious. The boss wasn't too pleased to have him as a customer as it was a very fashionable club."

Bernett recounts that the club owners then told him to let well alone and avoid calling in the police.

So the police, when eventually called, registered him dead in his Paris flat, which before their arrival, Bernett says, had been cleared of drug evidence by dealer Count Jean de Breteuil -- then with singer Marianne Faithfull.

Morrison's girlfriend Pamela Courson, who died four years later of a heroin overdose also aged 27, offered police conflicting accounts but said they had been to the cinema the previous night and she had found him in the tub in the morning. French filmmaker Agnes Varda, a friend of Morrison's, was there to help.

Steele, a rock musician named Phil Trainer at the time, who in 2005 received a Grammy nomination for his music in Quentin Tarantino's "Kill Bill", panned Bernett's book as drawing its facts largely from well-known biographers Stephen Davis and Danny Sugerman, while adding "scandal".

"This is making a scandal out of it," he told AFP.

Steele, who met Morrison a couple of times, says he was suffering from writer's block and was desperately ill, drinking, smoking and taking cocaine though he was asthmatic.

"He would've died anyway," said Steele, who disbelieves some of the details in Bernett's book -- that Morrison drank vodka rather than whisky, that he could be bundled out of the club without dozens of people noticing, that no witnesses are named...

With no autopsy to stake out the truth, Steele believes the earlier official version of the death -- that he may have been carried out of the club drunk but died at home after mistakenly taking a dose of his girlfriend's heroin instead of sticking to cocaine as usual.

"In my book, which is novelised, I elevate his bohemian personality," he said.

As for Bernett, he says he spoke out now because rumours had long swirled over the death scene, and the time had come to speak out.

"For years people have been asking me what really happened. This is the truth."

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mewsical
Bernett didn't know Jim, except to say 'hi' to when Jim came into the club. He actually contradicts himself and says Jim was declared dead by the Mystery Medic and then says he was unconscious. Well, you're either dead or you're unconscious. Can't have it both ways. You don't take a dead guy to his flat and put him in a bathtub. And, as far as all accounts go, Jim was clean-shaven while living in Paris. We have enough photographic evidence of that. We have two unknown 'dealers' carry him out, despite the account of Chauvel, not a dealer, who says that a) he helped him out, and Jim was very much conscious at the time.

Incidentally, why did the Count have to come and throw drugs out? Was Pamela not able to flush dope down the toilet, suddenly?

Bernett is a scandal-monger, and I don't believe him.

Thank you for putting that up, rotary.
DeadAsADoorNail
Plus, July 3rd was part of the weekend following up to the Fourth of July festivities with drunken tourists walking the Paris streets at night.

And, there is no mention how on earth a couple of heroin addicts managed to carry Jim's body up all those flights of stairs to his hotel room? And his body was said to be seeping blood and bodily fluids...It would have been a mess getting the corpse into the bath without there being a clean-up of waste, and blood.
MO2826
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 29 2007, 09:40 AM) [snapback]18254[/snapback]
Her name was Robin Wertle, a French-speaking Canadian. She was hired by Jim to take care of daily details for him, as he and Pamela did not speak French.

More about Jim's days in Paris here - some have issues with its details:

Rainier Modderman account.



I will read the article but I skimmed through it and it doesn't say at what time the rock n' roll circus club used to open. And it doesn't say if it was on the other side of the river bank from where Jim lived either. But maybe I skipped. I will read it in detail.

Maybe what you mean is that Miss Wertle was a sort of maid perhaps.
mewsical
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 29 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]18261[/snapback]
I will read the article but I skimmed through it and it doesn't say at what time the rock n' roll circus club used to open. And it doesn't say if it was on the other side of the river bank from where Jim lived either. But maybe I skipped. I will read it in detail.

Maybe what you mean is that Miss Wertle was a sort of maid perhaps.


It mentions that the club opened around 10 p.m.. and is on Rue Mazarine. I googled it and Rue Mazarine is on the Left Bank. The club is now known as the Wagg (Whisky a Go Go) and here's some info on it and its whereabouts
The Wagg - Paris

and
Wagg official site

Robin Wertle was a secretary, not a maid. She didn't do housework.

"In the meantime Jim had employed a secretary. Robin Wertle, a pretty Canadian, was his 'Girl Friday', and did not only deal with Jim's business correspondence, but also with the buying of furniture, the employment of a cleaning lady and all other matters needing a knowledge of the French language."

You should read the article. It's long but gives you some idea of what was going on.
DeadAsADoorNail
Interesting. Plus, the Rock N Roll Circus is up for rent/sale.

The 'Jim died in the toilet' story is perfect publicity for a sucker born every minute who buys into the lie.

Bernett expects to sell/rent the R&R Circus so the new tenants can capitalize on the hoax and treat it like Jim died here like it was Pere Lachaize or something. It's for the tourists to gawk like obscene monsters when they use the loo.

It's so obvious Sam Bernett is trying to find new owners for the club. The selling point is also obvious, you buy the Rock and Roll Circus you buy the lie Jim died in the toilet.

Notice how the French keep using the word "toilet" to describe Jim's supposed demise? They are trying to also put Jim in a class with Elvis Presely's death. It's disdainful. And disrespectful.

Sam Bernett hates Americans.

mewsical
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 29 2007, 03:31 PM) [snapback]18259[/snapback]
Plus, July 3rd was part of the weekend following up to the Fourth of July festivities with drunken tourists walking the Paris streets at night.

And, there is no mention how on earth a couple of heroin addicts managed to carry Jim's body up all those flights of stairs to his hotel room? And his body was said to be seeping blood and bodily fluids...It would have been a mess getting the corpse into the bath without there being a clean-up of waste, and blood.


That's another pesky little detail that I find intriguing too! laugh.gif If Jim was a dead-weight, and let's say he was 185 lbs - he'd put on some weight while he was there - this would have been impossible without attracting attention. Someone posted that people on heroin have enormous strength. I have some knowledge of people on heroin. Er - I don't think so. Their instinct would have been to get far, far away from such a buzz kill. Let alone schlepping an apparent corpse through the street of Paris in the middle of the night - as you point out, on a holiday weekend - plus then carrying said corpse up several flights of stairs, without disturbing the nosy neighbors. If they'd wrecked the car or done something else stupid, the police would have had them - "Excuse moi? Le homme? Amercain? Mort? " - and so on.

There's also this 'was he dead' or 'was he unconscious' aspect as well.

Either way, it all sell books, I suppose. Perhaps one of these days, it'll be translated into English, so we won't have to keep reading interviews with good old Sam. So far, I doubt many French people are buying it. What do they care? blink.gif
mewsical
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 29 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]18263[/snapback]
Interesting. Plus, the Rock N Roll Circus is up for rent/sale.

The 'Jim died in the toilet' story is perfect publicity for a sucker born every minute who buys into the lie.


Well, my my! Aren't you the suspicious little thing! laugh.gif laugh.gif wink.gif

QUOTE
Bernett expects to sell/rent the R&R Circus so the new tenants can capitalize on the hoax and treat it like Jim died here like it was Pere Lachaize or something. It's for the tourists to gawk like obscene monsters when they use the loo.
They gather round Jim's grave as if they expect him to pop up suddenly, and they make a bit of a mess of the grave site, as far as I can see. But, he's been declared a National Monument recently, so the grave will stay in Pere LaChaise in perpetuity, unless the family wants to bring him home to California.

Perhaps some would enjoy a toilet too and come and spend their money in our club! Stupid tourists! Oy. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
It's so obvious Sam Bernett is trying to find new owners for the club. The selling point is also obvious, you buy the Rock and Roll Circus you buy the lie Jim died in the toilet.


I hope Mr. Bernett's little scam also dies in the toilet, from whence it sprang.

QUOTE
Notice how the French keep using the word "toilet" to describe Jim's supposed demise? They are trying to also put Jim in a class with Elvis Presley's death. It's disdainful. And disrespectful.
I would appreciate an English translation of this book, and a little less press.

QUOTE
Sam Bernett hates Americans.


I think 100,000 Allied troops gave their lives to drive the Nazis out of Paris. You're welcome, Sam. Don't let the door(s) hit you in the ass on your way out!
Ia woman

QUOTE
Interesting. Plus, the Rock N Roll Circus is up for rent/sale.



yes very interesting aspect
DeadAsADoorNail
Two French drug dealers shlepping the corpse of a dead rock star through the streets of Paris would make for a great little black comedy like Weekend At Bernie's.
Ia woman
QUOTE
I think 100,000 Allied troops gave their lives to drive the Nazis out of Paris. You're welcome, Sam. Don't let the door(s) hit you in the ass on your way out!


yea...I dont think Sam would have had much fun managing the rock-n-roll circus under Nazi Germany wink.gif
worm man
If he died at the circus club...wouldn't that make it July 2nd...and with morrison's grave being declared a national monument...i think that means the family can't take him home...not that they would stoop so low
mewsical
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 29 2007, 08:13 PM) [snapback]18271[/snapback]
Two French drug dealers shlepping the corpse of a dead rock star through the streets of Paris would make for a great little black comedy like Weekend At Bernie's.


I like the way you think! laugh.gif
mewsical
QUOTE(worm man @ Jul 30 2007, 01:42 AM) [snapback]18273[/snapback]
If he died at the circus club...wouldn't that make it July 2nd...and with morrison's grave being declared a national monument...i think that means the family can't take him home...not that they would stoop so low


He died on July 3, although he was allegedly at the club in the last hours of July 2 (Friday).

I don't think his family intends to bring him home. The lease on the grave was renewed a few years back, and now, presumably, the nation of France will pick up those costs, maintain the grave and so on.

I wonder if they'll declare the toilet a national monument? rolleyes.gif

Moses Jones
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 29 2007, 06:31 PM) [snapback]18259[/snapback]
Plus, July 3rd was part of the weekend following up to the Fourth of July festivities with drunken tourists walking the Paris streets at night.


Why do they celebrate the Fourth of July in France?
gotothelight
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 30 2007, 10:45 AM) [snapback]18283[/snapback]
Why do they celebrate the Fourth of July in France?


When I first read this question, I thought perhaps the 4th of July is Bastille Day there (the French national holiday).. but after looking that up.. I found out that Bastille Day is actually on the _14th_ of July. So... that's not it.

I suppose there is some kind of weird possibility that American tourists go to Paris to celebrate US Independance Day... but I kind of doubt it.

So.. good question Moses. Who would have been celebrating the 4th of July weekend in France when Jim Morrison died?
mewsical
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 30 2007, 08:20 AM) [snapback]18285[/snapback]
When I first read this question, I thought perhaps the 4th of July is Bastille Day there (the French national holiday).. but after looking that up.. I found out that Bastille Day is actually on the _14th_ of July. So... that's not it.

I suppose there is some kind of weird possibility that American tourists go to Paris to celebrate US Independance Day... but I kind of doubt it.

So.. good question Moses. Who would have been celebrating the 4th of July weekend in France when Jim Morrison died?


July 4, 1917 marked the arrival of the United States forces, commanded by Pershing, into Paris, during the First World War - marking a turn towards victory. Whether they still celebrate this or not, I don't know. There's always Americans in Paris, so chances are good that there were a few celebrants around on the streets that weekend. Whether this would have caused additional traffic, etc. There has always been a strong relationship between the French and America - i.e. the Statue of Liberty and so on - so there must have been some observation of the holiday.
DeadAsADoorNail
Alain Ronay made a reference to Independence Day in his memoir of Jim's death:

'The chief was therefore about to discover the exact sequence of Jim's name. We had to avoid giving him the passport.

"We left it in the apartment. I would have to look for it," I cautioned him. "Do you feel like waiting for me or do you prefer that we bring it there in person? In any case, the Embassy offices are closed until Tuesday since we're celebrating Independence Day. Besides which, it's late. Don't you have to go home for supper?"

"All right, you can do it yourselves and as a matter of fact, it is late.. I'll be at your place again tomorrow morning. Try to be there. Until then you can do what you like."

"Monsieur," I said suddenly, "and the body?"

"I had asked you not to talk about the body yet- Leave it where it is for now."'
Moses Jones
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 29 2007, 08:35 PM) [snapback]18265[/snapback]
I think 100,000 Allied troops gave their lives to drive the Nazis out of Paris.


When De gaulle told LBJ in 1968 that he wanted all the American soldiers out of France, LBJ replied " And all the dead ones too?"

While I think the French should be a little more grateful for The USA bailing them out of two world wars, I also feel as Americans we need to remember that it was the French that helped us finance the American Revolution.
mewsical
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 30 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]18289[/snapback]
When De gaulle told LBJ in 1968 that he wanted all the American soldiers out of France, LBJ replied " And all the dead ones too?"

While I think the French should be a little more grateful for The USA bailing them out of two world wars, I also feel as Americans we need to remember that it was the French that helped us finance the American Revolution.


Ahem - there were British forces in there as well, and we are still waiting for something other than a disdainful sniff from You Know Who! In fact, speaking of funding the Revolution ... laugh.gif



MO2826
because I will not write this in my story, Jim directly headed to Paradise, Jim just didn't stuck there looking at you and what you did, I can tell you a secret:
the body was in the morgue for 3 to 4 days. It was but you're right, there was no autopsy. There was no need for one because the cause of death was evident. They were very understsanding, the police there and the director at the cemetary, one can say you were lucky, almost. When the greed of man is too much and they directly interfere with the universe then the universe comes tumbling down upon them. Flaws my friends, your downfall is the world's healing.
Moses Jones
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 30 2007, 02:51 PM) [snapback]18296[/snapback]
this is interfering directly with a person's unncesaary pain on her path and progress.
this is very serious.


Who? Pearl Courson? I would hope given the time she has been able to come to terms with it all.

You know a Sno Cone® machine is a lot less complicated in function and design than a Slurpee machine. Besides a higher profit margin, I think the owners of Sno Cone® machines are as a whole a lot happier people. Almost as if they don't take life so seriously.

I'M curious if anyone here knows with absolute certainty what Jim's favorite flavor of Sno Cone® was? Part of me thinks cherry red and part of me thinks lime green. I met a waitress from Duke's once who told me Jim was a very private and quiet person. I tried to ask in a polite way, what, if any condiments he may have enjoyed. Even though Jim was long gone, she still respected his privacy and just said she "could not remember." Though she did point to some ketchup and Tobasco sauce and wink.
When asked about Sno Cone® flavors she told me that Duke's did not, nor ever did serve Sno Cones®. I spent an entire weekend searching out older ice cream vendors from Santa Monica to Venice Beach. All claimed to have never met Jim or having ever served him any type of frozen confection.

So there is a remote possiblity that Jim did not consume ice cream or Sno Cones® in public, or perhaps this is all part of a larger conspiracy?

As a warning to you younger folks out there: DO NOT EAT ICE CREAM OR SNO CONES TOO FAST. Though not common, brain freeze can be fatal.

So here is Jim on a sweltery night in Paris, July 1971, and in perfect health. I would think it's entirely possible he may have had a few drinks and then was served some type of frozen confection (French vanilla?), not realizing the much lower temperatures of European ice creams, consumed it too fast and lost conciousness from brain freeze, then taken to a warm bath tub to try and revive him, only to finally succumb to cerebral hypothermia.

jym
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 30 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]18302[/snapback]
Who?
I'M curious if anyone here knows with absolute certainty what Jim's favorite flavor of Sno Cone® was? Part of me thinks cherry red and part of me thinks lime green. I met a waitress from Duke's once who told me Jim was a very private and quiet person. I tried to ask in a polite way, what, if any condiments he may have enjoyed. Even though Jim was long gone, she still respected his privacy and just said she "could not remember." Though she did point to some ketchup and Tobasco sauce and wink.
When asked about Sno Cone® flavors she told me that Duke's did not, nor ever did serve Sno Cones®. I spent an entire weekend searching out older ice cream vendors from Santa Monica to Venice Beach. All claimed to have never met Jim or having ever served him any type of frozen confection.

So there is a remote possiblity that Jim did not consume ice cream or Sno Cones® in public, or perhaps this is all part of a larger conspiracy?

As a warning to you younger folks out there: DO NOT EAT ICE CREAM OR SNO CONES TOO FAST. Though not common, brain freeze can be fatal.

So here is Jim on a sweltery night in Paris, July 1971, and in perfect health. I would think it's entirely possible he may have had a few drinks and then was served some type of frozen confection (French vanilla?), not realizing the much lower temperatures of European ice creams, consumed it too fast and lost conciousness from brain freeze, then taken to a warm bath tub to try and revive him, only to finally succumb to cerebral hypothermia.




laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Did you try bribing those sno cone vendors, I think that may have loosened their tongues up a bit! Did you try the Hot Dog Stick booths?
mewsical
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 30 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]18299[/snapback]
because I will not write this in my story, Jim directly headed to Paradise, Jim just didn't stuck there looking at you and what you did, I can tell you a secret:
the body was in the morgue for 3 to 4 days. It was but you're right, there was no autopsy. There was no need for one because the cause of death was evident. They were very understsanding, the police there and the director at the cemetary, one can say you were lucky, almost. When the greed of man is too much and they directly interfere with the universe then the universe comes tumbling down upon them. Flaws my friends, your downfall is the world's healing.


Jim died of a heart attack, brought on by chicken livers and fries from Pioneer Chicken on Sunset Boulevard at 3:00 a.m. , or maybe it was a King Chili Cheeseburger from the Sunset Grill (same hour), a raid on Pink's after a night of drinking at the Troub, the Whisky, wherever, a double bullshit and coke at Martoni's or Tana's after-hours, you name it. Take as many of these as you can stand and call me in the morning.
Moses Jones
I saw Duke's had chicken livers and so does Barney's Beanery. I wasn't brave enough to try them. So it's probable to me that a combination of the fall from the balcony of The Chateau Marmot, chronic asthma, accidental brain freeze, a love of chicken livers and living on the edge in general was the likely culprit here. Though the possibility of French waiter or chef with strong anti American sentiments may have poisoned him, remains.

I'M pretty well satisfied myself. Case closed.



Maybe if there really is a Heaven we can ask him ourselves someday. And what if Jim says he's not really sure himself?

I think it's great that Jim's earthly spirit is still with us in the poetry and the music, and for me that's enough. How he died isn't as important as how he lived. Because everyone dies, but not everyone really lives.

mewsical
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 30 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]18313[/snapback]
I saw Duke's had chicken livers and so does Barney's Beanery. I wasn't brave enough to try them. So it's probable to me that a combination of the fall from the balcony of The Chateau Marmot, chronic asthma, accidental brain freeze, a love of chicken livers and living on the edge in general was the likely culprit here. Though the possibility of French waiter or chef with strong anti American sentiments may have poisoned him, remains.

I'M pretty well satisfied myself. Case closed.



Maybe if there really is a Heaven we can ask him ourselves someday. And what if Jim says he's not really sure himself?

I think it's great that Jim's earthly spirit is still with us in the poetry and the music, and for me that's enough. How he died isn't as important as how he lived. Because everyone dies, but not everyone really lives.


Jim lived, in the true sense of the word, in the best of times, and the worst of times, and I think he managed to make a really good go of it.
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