Someone sent me this link from yesterday's Daily Mail and I found it quite interesting. Sam Bernett, Morrison's "good friend".. and manager of the Rock'n'Roll Circus when Jim supposedly died there, decides to tell his story all these years later... and according to the article, French authorities may now be talking about opening up a new investigation into his death.......
You can read the story HERE
Personally, I find the story both feasible and plausible... and it connects with some of what Ive been told over the years by reliable people with bits of information. At the risk of opening up another "how did Jim die?" thread, I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on this after reading this article. Thanks.
Full Version: Morrison's Death
I'm always skeptical of this story, & even though Sam Bernett has come forth as a witness with a book titled The End (another one!) I still find it hard to believe that a handful of people who are "sworn" to secrecy and then no one talks, someone always talks especially heroin addicts who need money and wouldn't be above selling the secret of Jim Morrison's death to some journalists or to give information to the police in order to cut a deal for themselves.
All that being said this guy obviously believes it, I guess I'll have to think about it more & see if more info comes out & if there is an investigation (although I really don't see what's in it for the French authorities).
All that being said this guy obviously believes it, I guess I'll have to think about it more & see if more info comes out & if there is an investigation (although I really don't see what's in it for the French authorities).
Interesting D...BUT my skeptical side says....why is there ALWAYS a book when they finally decide to talk? I ask myself, is the motivator the truth or is it the book.
QUOTE(knowidea @ Jul 8 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]17425[/snapback]
Interesting D...BUT my skeptical side says....why is there ALWAYS a book when they finally decide to talk? I ask myself, is the motivator the truth or is it the book.
Very good point Jim. I was kind of wondering why this "good friend" of Jim Morrison's hasn't really been heard of by anyone.. until now... before the release of his book? It sure seems to have financial motivation written all over it, but why now.. all these years later? It's not by any means any sort of newsflash or anything.. the rock'n'roll circus story has been talked about for years. Have the french authorities not heard about it until now? Hmm.. maybe they don't read this board.... :-)
I found the story interesting, and it would make some kind of convoluted sense if it's true. It would explain what's been said about Morrison's head being at the faucet end of the tub (if indeed that's been reported truthfully), and it would also explain the contention of several people that Pamela was _not_ there when he died. And wasn't there some DJ or something that announced his death before his body was found in the apartment...?
I was just curious about anyone else's thoughts on it. It's certainly not something that couldn't have happened, and as I said.. it is feasible. The question is going to be however.. can it be proven.. beyond a doubt? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 8 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]17430[/snapback]
And wasn't there some DJ or something that announced his death before his body was found in the apartment...?
I've been thinking about this (as promised or threatened). Actually the DJ thing has always been part & parcel of this tale, and puts a neat little hole in this guy's story. If they were all sworn to secrecy not to tell anybody about this, what's the DJ doing announcing Jim's death? All of a sudden you have 500 people who know than the about it than the 5 who were in the bathroom by my count from the story, and that doesn't count the people who may have seen them dragging Jim out of the club, or on the street into a car.
Now the part I've been thinking about. After all these years isn't this a rather artificial if not contrived bit to surround Jim's death with a bit of mystery? What does it matter if Jim died in the Rock n' Roll Circus or in the apartment with Pam, or on a merry go round in Coney Island? He's still dead. His death will never define him or lead to a greater understanding of his person. What will define him, as it will define us all, is the work we leave behind.
QUOTE(jym @ Jul 8 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]17443[/snapback]
What does it matter if Jim died in the Rock n' Roll Circus or in the apartment with Pam, or on a merry go round in Coney Island? He's still dead. His death will never define him or lead to a greater understanding of his person. What will define him, as it will define us all, is the work we leave behind.
Very well said Jim. Thanks.
Well I have a couple of points to make.
First off, Bernett has not represented HIMSELF as a 'close friend' of Morrison. These are the words of the person who wrote the article, and they should not be used against him.
Second, the DJ (Cameron Watson) made the announcement later at a different club, supposedly tipped off by either the Count or some associated heroin dealers.
It made no difference whether people thought he was dead to them then; the Count was about to leave the country and they'd already gotten a doctor to sign off on it.
The only element of being 'sworn to secrecy' any longer which mattered was the manner of death, which was NOT divulged.
First off, Bernett has not represented HIMSELF as a 'close friend' of Morrison. These are the words of the person who wrote the article, and they should not be used against him.
Second, the DJ (Cameron Watson) made the announcement later at a different club, supposedly tipped off by either the Count or some associated heroin dealers.
It made no difference whether people thought he was dead to them then; the Count was about to leave the country and they'd already gotten a doctor to sign off on it.
The only element of being 'sworn to secrecy' any longer which mattered was the manner of death, which was NOT divulged.
QUOTE(jim4371 @ Jul 9 2007, 06:42 AM) [snapback]17455[/snapback]
Well I have a couple of points to make.
First off, Bernett has not represented HIMSELF as a 'close friend' of Morrison. These are the words of the person who wrote the article, and they should not be used against him.
Second, the DJ (Cameron Watson) made the announcement later at a different club, supposedly tipped off by either the Count or some associated heroin dealers.
It made no difference whether people thought he was dead to them then; the Count was about to leave the country and they'd already gotten a doctor to sign off on it.
The only element of being 'sworn to secrecy' any longer which mattered was the manner of death, which was NOT divulged.
First off, Bernett has not represented HIMSELF as a 'close friend' of Morrison. These are the words of the person who wrote the article, and they should not be used against him.
Second, the DJ (Cameron Watson) made the announcement later at a different club, supposedly tipped off by either the Count or some associated heroin dealers.
It made no difference whether people thought he was dead to them then; the Count was about to leave the country and they'd already gotten a doctor to sign off on it.
The only element of being 'sworn to secrecy' any longer which mattered was the manner of death, which was NOT divulged.
Good points!
Bennett only said he knew Jim because Jim went to the club on a regular basis and they talked. That means they could at least have been considered friendly. Jim could be like that. There were many people that Jim knew, that those who were close to him in Los Angeles did not know of, and Paris was no exception. I'm sure there must have been a few people in Paris that Jim knew that we have not heard of yet...and may never hear about at all.
The Count on reaching Morocco did talk to a journalist friend of his about Jim's death. John Densmore mentions Marianne Faithfull's talking to another journalist years later, (someone who was on the radio). It's mentioned in John's book or at least in the galley book I have. Marianne later denied knowing anything about it when she wrote her own book.
When you consider what has been said about the club and the heroin, the information has been remarkably consistent over the years.
People have talked about what they've seen for several decades, but an OD is an OD and a death from a heart attack is a natural death, so of course the Paris Police did not carry the investigation any further. I doubt that they will do so now as they are too busy with criminals and the local terrorists.
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 8 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]17420[/snapback]
Someone sent me this link from yesterday's Daily Mail and I found it quite interesting. Sam Bernett, Morrison's "good friend".. and manager of the Rock'n'Roll Circus when Jim supposedly died there, decides to tell his story all these years later... and according to the article, French authorities may now be talking about opening up a new investigation into his death.......
You can read the story HERE
Personally, I find the story both feasible and plausible... and it connects with some of what Ive been told over the years by reliable people with bits of information. At the risk of opening up another "how did Jim die?" thread, I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on this after reading this article. Thanks.
You can read the story HERE
Personally, I find the story both feasible and plausible... and it connects with some of what Ive been told over the years by reliable people with bits of information. At the risk of opening up another "how did Jim die?" thread, I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on this after reading this article. Thanks.
D. I printed it out (as usual) and will read it later............I'll let ya know my take on it. j
Bennett could have said " yeah, I remember meeting him a few times, he was a really nice guy..."
But that wouldn't get you a book deal and some press, now would it? Perhaps he's just another worm, interviewing the corpse?
Though he was pestered for years by reporters investigating Morrison's death, he kept his story quiet until his wife suggested writing a book last year.
But that wouldn't get you a book deal and some press, now would it? Perhaps he's just another worm, interviewing the corpse?
Though he was pestered for years by reporters investigating Morrison's death, he kept his story quiet until his wife suggested writing a book last year.
I read 'the real story' last night. It was somewhat redundant with articles written by French journalists....(Herve comes to mind saying his sources were junkies ). I would consider him a jag off.
Actually I have no idea what to believe so I will choose my own ending.
I think it was Moses who questioned if the case was an OD at the R&R Circus Jim would have been dead weight
and would have had to be carried up three flights of stairs?
Doesn't look to me like the French are going to leave our Jim alone...'specially when a buck can be made. So, I will believe what Pamela said.
In no way am I disputing what was recently written....(like I ain't calling 'em fucking liars)....we are never going to know...ever.
That is ok with me . I know enough to already know I will miss him for the rest of my life, and hate the city of Miami forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
j
Actually I have no idea what to believe so I will choose my own ending.
I think it was Moses who questioned if the case was an OD at the R&R Circus Jim would have been dead weight
and would have had to be carried up three flights of stairs?
Doesn't look to me like the French are going to leave our Jim alone...'specially when a buck can be made. So, I will believe what Pamela said.
In no way am I disputing what was recently written....(like I ain't calling 'em fucking liars)....we are never going to know...ever.
That is ok with me . I know enough to already know I will miss him for the rest of my life, and hate the city of Miami forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
j
My room mate said to me the other night, " Hey you hear about this latest thing about Jim's death?"
And I replied with " Ya, remembered when I was crippled and couldn't walk?"
"Yes." she said
" And how many guys do you think it would take to carry Jim out of the bar, into a taxi and up some steps?"
I asked.
" He was pretty big guy, wasn't he over six foot tall?" she replied.
And that was the end of the discussion.
I do admit anything is possible though, especially given the well known strength of the French.
And I replied with " Ya, remembered when I was crippled and couldn't walk?"
"Yes." she said
" And how many guys do you think it would take to carry Jim out of the bar, into a taxi and up some steps?"
I asked.
" He was pretty big guy, wasn't he over six foot tall?" she replied.
And that was the end of the discussion.
I do admit anything is possible though, especially given the well known strength of the French.
The story Morrison died at the R&R Circus is pure hog wash.
So this guy dies in the toilet, and two drug dealers carry the lifeless body through the streets of Paris back to the hotel room. The body was stripped naked, and then dumped into a bath tub. Without making a fuss.
When the supposed drug dealers arrived at the hotel, did one of them rummage through Jim's leather trousers for the keys to the room?
Did Morrison have his hotel room keys on him when he died? Or, did residents have to ask the hotel desk clerk for the key to their room? It's never explained. Because it's just not true. In reality had he died of the drug overdose at the club, Morrison would have been dumped in alley somewhere, or in some deserted staircase.
Where was Pam while this was going on? Nodding out in bed when all this happened?
Alain Ronay accounts of finding Morrison in the bath tub is more realistic in his recollections, right down to snatches of conversations between him and Pam. It's very detailed moment by moment.
In fact the Paris police, and fire department reports jive together and support Pam's interrogation by Paris police.
Pam's account is probably the truth. She never changed any part of her story.
So this guy dies in the toilet, and two drug dealers carry the lifeless body through the streets of Paris back to the hotel room. The body was stripped naked, and then dumped into a bath tub. Without making a fuss.
When the supposed drug dealers arrived at the hotel, did one of them rummage through Jim's leather trousers for the keys to the room?
Did Morrison have his hotel room keys on him when he died? Or, did residents have to ask the hotel desk clerk for the key to their room? It's never explained. Because it's just not true. In reality had he died of the drug overdose at the club, Morrison would have been dumped in alley somewhere, or in some deserted staircase.
Where was Pam while this was going on? Nodding out in bed when all this happened?
Alain Ronay accounts of finding Morrison in the bath tub is more realistic in his recollections, right down to snatches of conversations between him and Pam. It's very detailed moment by moment.
In fact the Paris police, and fire department reports jive together and support Pam's interrogation by Paris police.
Pam's account is probably the truth. She never changed any part of her story.
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 13 2007, 11:29 PM) [snapback]17581[/snapback]
The story Morrison died at the R&R Circus is pure hog wash.
So this guy dies in the toilet, and two drug dealers carry the lifeless body through the streets of Paris back to the hotel room. The body was stripped naked, and then dumped into a bath tub. Without making a fuss.
When the supposed drug dealers arrived at the hotel, did one of them rummage through Jim's leather trousers for the keys to the room?
Did Morrison have his hotel room keys on him when he died? Or, did residents have to ask the hotel desk clerk for the key to their room? It's never explained. Because it's just not true. In reality had he died of the drug overdose at the club, Morrison would have been dumped in alley somewhere, or in some deserted staircase.
Where was Pam while this was going on? Nodding out in bed when all this happened?
Alain Ronay accounts of finding Morrison in the bath tub is more realistic in his recollections, right down to snatches of conversations between him and Pam. It's very detailed moment by moment.
In fact the Paris police, and fire department reports jive together and support Pam's interrogation by Paris police.
Pam's account is probably the truth. She never changed any part of her story.
So this guy dies in the toilet, and two drug dealers carry the lifeless body through the streets of Paris back to the hotel room. The body was stripped naked, and then dumped into a bath tub. Without making a fuss.
When the supposed drug dealers arrived at the hotel, did one of them rummage through Jim's leather trousers for the keys to the room?
Did Morrison have his hotel room keys on him when he died? Or, did residents have to ask the hotel desk clerk for the key to their room? It's never explained. Because it's just not true. In reality had he died of the drug overdose at the club, Morrison would have been dumped in alley somewhere, or in some deserted staircase.
Where was Pam while this was going on? Nodding out in bed when all this happened?
Alain Ronay accounts of finding Morrison in the bath tub is more realistic in his recollections, right down to snatches of conversations between him and Pam. It's very detailed moment by moment.
In fact the Paris police, and fire department reports jive together and support Pam's interrogation by Paris police.
Pam's account is probably the truth. She never changed any part of her story.
i totally agree with everything you wrote..i think this book is just "a thirst for money" nothing more..cos nothing sells better than scandals. the book is a total disgrace and i am not even try to read it.
QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 9 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]17458[/snapback]
Good points!
Bennett only said he knew Jim because Jim went to the club on a regular basis and they talked. That means they could at least have been considered friendly. Jim could be like that. There were many people that Jim knew, that those who were close to him in Los Angeles did not know of, and Paris was no exception. I'm sure there must have been a few people in Paris that Jim knew that we have not heard of yet...and may never hear about at all.
The Count on reaching Morocco did talk to a journalist friend of his about Jim's death. John Densmore mentions Marianne Faithfull's talking to another journalist years later, (someone who was on the radio). It's mentioned in John's book or at least in the galley book I have. Marianne later denied knowing anything about it when she wrote her own book.
When you consider what has been said about the club and the heroin, the information has been remarkably consistent over the years.
People have talked about what they've seen for several decades, but an OD is an OD and a death from a heart attack is a natural death, so of course the Paris Police did not carry the investigation any further. I doubt that they will do so now as they are too busy with criminals and the local terrorists.
Bennett only said he knew Jim because Jim went to the club on a regular basis and they talked. That means they could at least have been considered friendly. Jim could be like that. There were many people that Jim knew, that those who were close to him in Los Angeles did not know of, and Paris was no exception. I'm sure there must have been a few people in Paris that Jim knew that we have not heard of yet...and may never hear about at all.
The Count on reaching Morocco did talk to a journalist friend of his about Jim's death. John Densmore mentions Marianne Faithfull's talking to another journalist years later, (someone who was on the radio). It's mentioned in John's book or at least in the galley book I have. Marianne later denied knowing anything about it when she wrote her own book.
When you consider what has been said about the club and the heroin, the information has been remarkably consistent over the years.
People have talked about what they've seen for several decades, but an OD is an OD and a death from a heart attack is a natural death, so of course the Paris Police did not carry the investigation any further. I doubt that they will do so now as they are too busy with criminals and the local terrorists.
you know, something about this is ringing my truth bell....I mean, I agreee with Jym about the book thing...but if the guy is doing it to sell books and make some money, why didnt he do years ago when he was young and could have enjoyed the money?
the thing is, did pam make up her whole story about being with jim that night? do you think if she did make it up it was because she was immersed in guilt?
sigh...poor pam, you know how bad she must have felt regardless
another thing, these 2 "guys" might have placed jim in the tub to try and revive him....
QUOTE(lost little girl @ Jul 13 2007, 08:01 PM) [snapback]17587[/snapback]
i totally agree with everything you wrote..i think this book is just "a thirst for money" nothing more..cos nothing sells better than scandals. the book is a total disgrace and i am not even try to read it.
Sometimes I think the French have a general contempt for Americans.
In Alain Ronay story of Jim's last days in Paris, he keeps wanting to escape from Morrison every time Jim makes a desperate plea for him to stay with him. Why?
He describes Morrison's poor health and a bad case of chronic hiccups that he believed was indicative to a prelude to a heart attack, which just happens to be a scientific fact. But if Alain felt these things about Jim, his health, the thoughts Jim was going to have a heart attack, perhaps he knew something he will never admit. (Heroin use?) He never comes out and tells us why he abandoned Jim at the Cafe when he should have taken him to a hospital.
Arrogance. Reminds me of the E TRUE HOLLYWOOD STORY on HERVE VILLACHAIZE. As Herve's physical condition worsened, he killed himself with a gunshot wound to the heart. Herve's older brother in France told interviewers years later he wasn't there to care of his sick and dying brother because he couldn't stand watching him die a slow death.
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 13 2007, 08:38 PM) [snapback]17590[/snapback]
Sometimes I think the French have a general contempt for Americans.
In Alain Ronay story of Jim's last days in Paris, he keeps wanting to escape from Morrison every time Jim makes a desperate plea for him to stay with him. Why?
He describes Morrison's poor health and a bad case of chronic hiccups that he believed was indicative to a prelude to a heart attack, which just happens to be a scientific fact. But if Alain felt these things about Jim, his health, the thoughts Jim was going to have a heart attack, perhaps he knew something he will never admit. (Heroin use?) He never comes out and tells us why he abandoned Jim at the Cafe when he should have taken him to a hospital.
Arrogance. Reminds me of the E TRUE HOLLYWOOD STORY on HERVE VILLACHAIZE. As Herve's physical condition worsened, he killed himself with a gunshot wound to the heart. Herve's older brother in France told interviewers years later he wasn't there to care of his sick and dying brother because he couldn't stand watching him die a slow death.
In Alain Ronay story of Jim's last days in Paris, he keeps wanting to escape from Morrison every time Jim makes a desperate plea for him to stay with him. Why?
He describes Morrison's poor health and a bad case of chronic hiccups that he believed was indicative to a prelude to a heart attack, which just happens to be a scientific fact. But if Alain felt these things about Jim, his health, the thoughts Jim was going to have a heart attack, perhaps he knew something he will never admit. (Heroin use?) He never comes out and tells us why he abandoned Jim at the Cafe when he should have taken him to a hospital.
Arrogance. Reminds me of the E TRUE HOLLYWOOD STORY on HERVE VILLACHAIZE. As Herve's physical condition worsened, he killed himself with a gunshot wound to the heart. Herve's older brother in France told interviewers years later he wasn't there to care of his sick and dying brother because he couldn't stand watching him die a slow death.
I have worked in Cardiac medicine for years, and never heard of chronic hiccups being any sort of prelude to a heart attack.
indgestion maybe, but not hiccups.
QUOTE(Ia woman @ Jul 13 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]17591[/snapback]
I have worked in Cardiac medicine for years, and never heard of chronic hiccups being any sort of prelude to a heart attack.
indgestion maybe, but not hiccups.
indgestion maybe, but not hiccups.
I found a couple of medical quote here on the connection between hiccups and a stroke. It doesn't explain Morrison's death but it conjures what I read in the story.
"Although hiccups are a normal occurrence, they serve no useful purpose. Hiccups are normally self-limiting. In some cases, however, hiccups don't go away, and these prolonged attacks can cause significant illness and even death. When the attack lasts longer than a month, the hiccups are termed intractable. Although more than a hundred causes have been described–everything from hysteria to trauma and malignancies--sometimes hiccups are caused by irritation of the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve, measuring about 22 inches, is the longest cranial nerve, wandering throughout the upper body. It is one of the body's primary communication pathways from the brain to other organs, and it contains few if any pain fibers. "
"Conditions which can cause chronic hiccups include liver disease, stomach ulcer, inflammatory bowel disease, kidney disease, lung diseases including cancer, heart attack, psychological disturbances, and certain medications."
QUOTE(DeadAsADoorNail @ Jul 13 2007, 08:56 PM) [snapback]17595[/snapback]
I found a couple of medical quote here on the connection between hiccups and a stroke. It doesn't explain Morrison's death but it conjures what I read in the story.
"Although hiccups are a normal occurrence, they serve no useful purpose. Hiccups are normally self-limiting. In some cases, however, hiccups don't go away, and these prolonged attacks can cause significant illness and even death. When the attack lasts longer than a month, the hiccups are termed intractable. Although more than a hundred causes have been described–everything from hysteria to trauma and malignancies--sometimes hiccups are caused by irritation of the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve, measuring about 22 inches, is the longest cranial nerve, wandering throughout the upper body. It is one of the body's primary communication pathways from the brain to other organs, and it contains few if any pain fibers. "
"Conditions which can cause chronic hiccups include liver disease, stomach ulcer, inflammatory bowel disease, kidney disease, lung diseases including cancer, heart attack, psychological disturbances, and certain medications."
"Although hiccups are a normal occurrence, they serve no useful purpose. Hiccups are normally self-limiting. In some cases, however, hiccups don't go away, and these prolonged attacks can cause significant illness and even death. When the attack lasts longer than a month, the hiccups are termed intractable. Although more than a hundred causes have been described–everything from hysteria to trauma and malignancies--sometimes hiccups are caused by irritation of the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve, measuring about 22 inches, is the longest cranial nerve, wandering throughout the upper body. It is one of the body's primary communication pathways from the brain to other organs, and it contains few if any pain fibers. "
"Conditions which can cause chronic hiccups include liver disease, stomach ulcer, inflammatory bowel disease, kidney disease, lung diseases including cancer, heart attack, psychological disturbances, and certain medications."
hiccups are not a warning sign of an impending heart attack. If you look at your list above, almost any disease could cause chronic hiccups. Thats because anything and everything could irritate the vagal nerve.
I dont mean any disrespect.
Hiccups are just not not something associated with heart disease
Hello to all. This is the perfect topic for my first post.
Jim's death, Jim's death.
My opinion is that this story is another distractor. And like all distractors this story is a lie.
But why now and why Mr Bennett?
Well there are two hypothesis: whether the guy is broke and needs money or someone related to the Morrison myth suggested that he should come up with this story. Mr Bennett might be seen by many as a fiaseble source because he was the owner or manager of the Rock & Roll Circus and so it's clever to choose him to bring more distraction to the always controversial issue of Jim Morrison's death.
As far as I know the Doors world has been going through turmoil over the last 4 years, definitely something is happening in the Doors world. Any story regarding Jim Morrison used to sell but in my opinion people begin to feel tired about the "secret". But maybe there is no secret at all, maybe what there is it's a fanatic blind denial of the truth by the great majority of the fans; a truth that is expressed in Jim's poetry; a truth that many people know. How can the fan bite the hook that only Pam, The Count and Ronay know the truth? Of course that more people know the truth but sworn to secrecy. The Doors know the truth, Danny Sugarman knew the truth, the Morrison family knows the truth and even some celebrities not related to the Doors know the truth. It's a secret that is whispered in a very restrict circle.
Some good questions have been brought up about this story. Where was Pam?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
Jim's death, Jim's death.
My opinion is that this story is another distractor. And like all distractors this story is a lie.
But why now and why Mr Bennett?
Well there are two hypothesis: whether the guy is broke and needs money or someone related to the Morrison myth suggested that he should come up with this story. Mr Bennett might be seen by many as a fiaseble source because he was the owner or manager of the Rock & Roll Circus and so it's clever to choose him to bring more distraction to the always controversial issue of Jim Morrison's death.
As far as I know the Doors world has been going through turmoil over the last 4 years, definitely something is happening in the Doors world. Any story regarding Jim Morrison used to sell but in my opinion people begin to feel tired about the "secret". But maybe there is no secret at all, maybe what there is it's a fanatic blind denial of the truth by the great majority of the fans; a truth that is expressed in Jim's poetry; a truth that many people know. How can the fan bite the hook that only Pam, The Count and Ronay know the truth? Of course that more people know the truth but sworn to secrecy. The Doors know the truth, Danny Sugarman knew the truth, the Morrison family knows the truth and even some celebrities not related to the Doors know the truth. It's a secret that is whispered in a very restrict circle.
Some good questions have been brought up about this story. Where was Pam?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 17 2007, 01:36 AM) [snapback]17658[/snapback]
Hello to all. This is the perfect topic for my first post.
Jim's death, Jim's death.
My opinion is that this story is another distractor. And like all distractors this story is a lie.
But why now and why Mr Bennett?
Well there are two hypothesis: whether the guy is broke and needs money or someone related to the Morrison myth suggested that he should come up with this story. Mr Bennett might be seen by many as a fiaseble source because he was the owner or manager of the Rock & Roll Circus and so it's clever to choose him to bring more distraction to the always controversial issue of Jim Morrison's death.
As far as I know the Doors world has been going through turmoil over the last 4 years, definitely something is happening in the Doors world. Any story regarding Jim Morrison used to sell but in my opinion people begin to feel tired about the "secret". But maybe there is no secret at all, maybe what there is it's a fanatic blind denial of the truth by the great majority of the fans; a truth that is expressed in Jim's poetry; a truth that many people know. How can the fan bite the hook that only Pam, The Count and Ronay know the truth? Of course that more people know the truth but sworn to secrecy. The Doors know the truth, Danny Sugarman knew the truth, the Morrison family knows the truth and even some celebrities not related to the Doors know the truth. It's a secret that is whispered in a very restrict circle.
Some good questions have been brought up about this story. Where was Pam?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
Jim's death, Jim's death.
My opinion is that this story is another distractor. And like all distractors this story is a lie.
But why now and why Mr Bennett?
Well there are two hypothesis: whether the guy is broke and needs money or someone related to the Morrison myth suggested that he should come up with this story. Mr Bennett might be seen by many as a fiaseble source because he was the owner or manager of the Rock & Roll Circus and so it's clever to choose him to bring more distraction to the always controversial issue of Jim Morrison's death.
As far as I know the Doors world has been going through turmoil over the last 4 years, definitely something is happening in the Doors world. Any story regarding Jim Morrison used to sell but in my opinion people begin to feel tired about the "secret". But maybe there is no secret at all, maybe what there is it's a fanatic blind denial of the truth by the great majority of the fans; a truth that is expressed in Jim's poetry; a truth that many people know. How can the fan bite the hook that only Pam, The Count and Ronay know the truth? Of course that more people know the truth but sworn to secrecy. The Doors know the truth, Danny Sugarman knew the truth, the Morrison family knows the truth and even some celebrities not related to the Doors know the truth. It's a secret that is whispered in a very restrict circle.
Some good questions have been brought up about this story. Where was Pam?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
Very insightful post MO, and welcome to the board!
Along with Pam, Ronay, and Varda.. Bill Siddons was also at Jim's "funeral", and so was a lady named Robyn (her last name escapes me at this moment.. but I think she was Jim's secretary...?) I've never heard any accounts of a priest being there.. and if indeed Jim _had_ been given last rites.. it would've been at the apartment.. not at the cemetary...although I haven't ever heard any account of that having happened either.
This whole thing is shrouded in mystery and always has been. Common sense has always told me that if Jim died from a "heart attack".. there would've been no secrecy. And if Jim died from some incident at the R&R Circus, that could've been proven many years ago and again.. no need for any secrecy.
Common sense also tells me that at the time of Jim's death back in 1971, noone could've known that people would still be fascinated by this 36 years later.. so it couldn't have been (at least not initially) about making money off the "mystery".
So... what's left? An "obvious" death.. one that would have no need for an autopsy.. and one that had some kind of need for secrecy. There's never been any doubt in my mind that those in The Doors "family" know the truth. Ray, John, and Robby know. Bill Siddons knows. Danny Sugerman knew. The story that people were told.. or paid.. to tell.. is not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...
As you stated, autopsies are always done when the cause of death is _not_ evident (especially in a young person). Coroner's don't go on speculation. The fact that it's been reported that one was not done on Jim Morrison tells me one of two things:
1) Money changed hands to not do one.
2) Money changed hands to destroy any record of one having been done.
But why?
We'll probably never know.
The "mystery" of Morrison's death has.. in the 36 years since he died... turned into a real money-maker. And now that the "official" story has been done to death (pun intended).. it's time to bring out a new one... the "real" truth...
Publicity makes the money machine roll baby roll....
This is all just my opinion, and I'm sure some of you will disagree with it. And that's fine. But the bottom line to me.. using real common sense... is this:
The 2 scenarios (heart attack.. and OD) could've been easily proven (with an autopsy) if one of them was indeed how he died. No autopsy = cause of death evident.
Good post MO.
Why would Jim have been given last rites? He was raised a Presbyterian.
In addition to those mentioned at the funeral were a couple of paid mourners provided by the funeral company.
Anyone interested in the details of Jim's burial should read The End by Bob Seymore. It has all the gory details you might expect.
What if Jim had indeed died from from something other than an overdose? Perhaps a combination of his asthma and the complications of his fall from the balcony at the Chateau Marmont shortly before his departure for France. Not much glamorous about that, not much meat for the folks that would like to think he was a rock god.
One things for sure they buried him deep (it was a double plot), so we aren't ever going to know for sure. And I like it that way myself.
In addition to those mentioned at the funeral were a couple of paid mourners provided by the funeral company.
Anyone interested in the details of Jim's burial should read The End by Bob Seymore. It has all the gory details you might expect.
What if Jim had indeed died from from something other than an overdose? Perhaps a combination of his asthma and the complications of his fall from the balcony at the Chateau Marmont shortly before his departure for France. Not much glamorous about that, not much meat for the folks that would like to think he was a rock god.
One things for sure they buried him deep (it was a double plot), so we aren't ever going to know for sure. And I like it that way myself.
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 17 2007, 09:05 AM) [snapback]17666[/snapback]
Why would Jim have been given last rites? He was raised a Presbyterian.
In addition to those mentioned at the funeral were a couple of paid mourners provided by the funeral company.
Anyone interested in the details of Jim's burial should read The End by Bob Seymore. It has all the gory details you might expect.
What if Jim had indeed died from from something other than an overdose? Perhaps a combination of his asthma and the complications of his fall from the balcony at the Chateau Marmont shortly before his departure for France. Not much glamorous about that, not much meat for the folks that would like to think he was a rock god.
One things for sure they buried him deep (it was a double plot), so we aren't ever going to know for sure. And I like it that way myself.
In addition to those mentioned at the funeral were a couple of paid mourners provided by the funeral company.
Anyone interested in the details of Jim's burial should read The End by Bob Seymore. It has all the gory details you might expect.
What if Jim had indeed died from from something other than an overdose? Perhaps a combination of his asthma and the complications of his fall from the balcony at the Chateau Marmont shortly before his departure for France. Not much glamorous about that, not much meat for the folks that would like to think he was a rock god.
One things for sure they buried him deep (it was a double plot), so we aren't ever going to know for sure. And I like it that way myself.
moses, how long was the fall before Morrison's death?
It's chronicled in Danny's book. If I remember right it happened days or weeks before his departure for Paris on March of 1971. Hanging from a second or third story balcony of the Chateau Marmont, Jim fell and bounced off an awning and landed with a thud on the sidewalk. I'll have to re read the passage, but I believe he may have punctured a lung.
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 17 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]17670[/snapback]
It's chronicled in Danny's book. If I remember right it happened days or weeks before his departure for Paris on March of 1971. Hanging from a second or third story balcony of the Chateau Marmont, Jim fell and bounced off an awning and landed with a thud on the sidewalk. I'll have to re read the passage, but I believe he may have punctured a lung.
From Danny's book (Wonderland Avenue):
" Jim reacted to Pam's early departure to Paris to find them a flat with unreserved abandon. He took to the town, stopping in every bar he'd ever been in to have a drink and say goodbye. He went on a month-long bender during which time he called every phone number he had to say 'so long', crashed two cars, and kept going until he was slowed down by a fall from the second floor window ledge at the Chateau Marmont. Usually Jim avoided doctors if at all possible, but this time he was in so much pain, he had to go. The doctor told Jim he'd punctured his left lung. I'd heard the news in a confidential way and I was sworn to secrecy. Jim either didn't want to worry anyone or didn't want his trip to Paris jeopardized, I couldn't be sure which.The doctor had given Jim specific instructions to take it easy. Jim, meanwhile, seemed bent on disobeying and continued with his farewell drink as if uninterrupted."
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 17 2007, 05:20 PM) [snapback]17677[/snapback]
From Danny's book (Wonderland Avenue):
" Jim reacted to Pam's early departure to Paris to find them a flat with unreserved abandon. He took to the town, stopping in every bar he'd ever been in to have a drink and say goodbye. He went on a month-long bender during which time he called every phone number he had to say 'so long', crashed two cars, and kept going until he was slowed down by a fall from the second floor window ledge at the Chateau Marmont. Usually Jim avoided doctors if at all possible, but this time he was in so much pain, he had to go. The doctor told Jim he'd punctured his left lung. I'd heard the news in a confidential way and I was sworn to secrecy. Jim either didn't want to worry anyone or didn't want his trip to Paris jeopardized, I couldn't be sure which.The doctor had given Jim specific instructions to take it easy. Jim, meanwhile, seemed bent on disobeying and continued with his farewell drink as if uninterrupted."
" Jim reacted to Pam's early departure to Paris to find them a flat with unreserved abandon. He took to the town, stopping in every bar he'd ever been in to have a drink and say goodbye. He went on a month-long bender during which time he called every phone number he had to say 'so long', crashed two cars, and kept going until he was slowed down by a fall from the second floor window ledge at the Chateau Marmont. Usually Jim avoided doctors if at all possible, but this time he was in so much pain, he had to go. The doctor told Jim he'd punctured his left lung. I'd heard the news in a confidential way and I was sworn to secrecy. Jim either didn't want to worry anyone or didn't want his trip to Paris jeopardized, I couldn't be sure which.The doctor had given Jim specific instructions to take it easy. Jim, meanwhile, seemed bent on disobeying and continued with his farewell drink as if uninterrupted."
I talked to Danny about his version of Jim's fall, after I read Wonderland.
(I) THE FALL
The fall in question happened in December, 1970. Jim did not puncture his lung. He bruised a rib bone and bruised the outside of his lung tissue, but there was no puncture.
If there had been any puncture, Jim would have been hospitalized for insertion of a plastic tube to remove air and reinflate the lung (surgery). A punctured lung is treated in a hospital, not in a doctor's office.
I pointed that out to Danny years ago. I checked again with Doctor Derwin, who examined Jim a short time after the fall and saw the xrays. There was bruising. The rib was not broken and the lung was not punctured. He also bruised his leg. Yes, Jim was told to take it easy.
In the last week of December or the first week of January, Jim and I bumped into each other. He was limping and I asked him what happened. He showed me a bruise on his side that came from the fall and said his leg was still sore. Jim clearly said it was a bruised rib and lung and a badly bruised leg.
There were no bruises on Jim at all according to Janet in February March 1971.
(II) MONTH-LONG BENDER
Most of the information about how Jim really spent his last month in Los Angeles came out after Danny's book had been published. It turns out that Jim did not spend his time in a month-long bender from February 14 to March 11.
Below is further information and a partial timeline that Danny and Jerry did not know about or have access to for either NOHGOA or Wonderland.
By the end of January 1971, Jim had checked out of the Chateau and moved into Norton.
Pamela left for Paris on February 14, 1971. Jim continued to stay at Norton. This is documented in (1) Janet Erwin's Ballroom Days (2) Patricia Kennealy's book.
After Pamela left town February 14, Jim had to deal with Kennealy who had come into town to surprise Jim and see if she had a chance to get re-involved with Jim. She did not. Jim saw Kennealy on February 17th to 19th. She went home on February 20th.
Jim had met Janet earlier in February. On the 20th Jim and Janet started their relationship which continued until March 8th, three days before Jim left for Paris on March 11th.
Jim's friend Babe Hill was dating a girl who insisted that if Babe wanted to date her that Morrison also had to go out with her friend, Sarah. Jim doubled dated with Babe for about two or three weekends (one of them spent in Catalina on the Doors' boat) during February and March. Hey, Buddies do that for each other.
Jim also played touch football one weekend day in Redondo Beach.
Jim had a fight with me at Elektra's opening party on March 3rd.
He left for France on March 11th.
Not much time for a month-long drunken spree.
I hope this is now straightened out and I'm sorry Danny was not able to get the rest of this information before his book was published.
QUOTE(jym @ Jul 8 2007, 11:35 PM) [snapback]17443[/snapback]
I've been thinking about this (as promised or threatened). Actually the DJ thing has always been part & parcel of this tale, and puts a neat little hole in this guy's story. If they were all sworn to secrecy not to tell anybody about this, what's the DJ doing announcing Jim's death? All of a sudden you have 500 people who know than the about it than the 5 who were in the bathroom by my count from the story, and that doesn't count the people who may have seen them dragging Jim out of the club, or on the street into a car.
Now the part I've been thinking about. After all these years isn't this a rather artificial if not contrived bit to surround Jim's death with a bit of mystery? What does it matter if Jim died in the Rock n' Roll Circus or in the apartment with Pam, or on a merry go round in Coney Island? He's still dead. His death will never define him or lead to a greater understanding of his person. What will define him, as it will define us all, is the work we leave behind.
Now the part I've been thinking about. After all these years isn't this a rather artificial if not contrived bit to surround Jim's death with a bit of mystery? What does it matter if Jim died in the Rock n' Roll Circus or in the apartment with Pam, or on a merry go round in Coney Island? He's still dead. His death will never define him or lead to a greater understanding of his person. What will define him, as it will define us all, is the work we leave behind.
The DJ was in a different club from the R&RC. It was around 4 or 5 in the morning and he announced it to maybe 25 people who were in the club at the time. Rumors were already circulating.
The only way his death defines him is to identify the frame of mind he was in when he died and the miind set of the people around him.
Otherwise, I agree. It is our work that should define us.
Salli, I'M suprised you'd mention Keneally's book as a source, given your history of publicly besmirching her and her book.
QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 17 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]17678[/snapback]
I talked to Danny about his version of Jim's fall, after I read Wonderland.
(I) THE FALL
The fall in question happened in December, 1970. Jim did not puncture his lung. He bruised a rib bone and bruised the outside of his lung tissue, but there was no puncture.
If there had been any puncture, Jim would have been hospitalized for insertion of a plastic tube to remove air and reinflate the lung (surgery). A punctured lung is treated in a hospital, not in a doctor's office.
I pointed that out to Danny years ago. I checked again with Doctor Derwin, who examined Jim a short time after the fall and saw the xrays. There was bruising. The rib was not broken and the lung was not punctured. He also bruised his leg. Yes, Jim was told to take it easy.
In the last week of December or the first week of January, Jim and I bumped into each other. He was limping and I asked him what happened. He showed me a bruise on his side that came from the fall and said his leg was still sore. Jim clearly said it was a bruised rib and lung and a badly bruised leg.
There were no bruises on Jim at all according to Janet in February March 1971.
(II) MONTH-LONG BENDER
Most of the information about how Jim really spent his last month in Los Angeles came out after Danny's book had been published. It turns out that Jim did not spend his time in a month-long bender from February 14 to March 11.
Below is further information and a partial timeline that Danny and Jerry did not know about or have access to for either NOHGOA or Wonderland.
By the end of January 1971, Jim had checked out of the Chateau and moved into Norton.
Pamela left for Paris on February 14, 1971. Jim continued to stay at Norton. This is documented in (1) Janet Erwin's Ballroom Days (2) Patricia Kennealy's book.
After Pamela left town February 14, Jim had to deal with Kennealy who had come into town to surprise Jim and see if she had a chance to get re-involved with Jim. She did not. Jim saw Kennealy on February 17th to 19th. She went home on February 20th.
Jim had met Janet earlier in February. On the 20th Jim and Janet started their relationship which continued until March 8th, three days before Jim left for Paris on March 11th.
Jim's friend Babe Hill was dating a girl who insisted that if Babe wanted to date her that Morrison also had to go out with her friend, Sarah. Jim doubled dated with Babe for about two or three weekends (one of them spent in Catalina on the Doors' boat) during February and March. Hey, Buddies do that for each other.
Jim also played touch football one weekend day in Redondo Beach.
Jim had a fight with me at Elektra's opening party on March 3rd.
He left for France on March 11th.
Not much time for a month-long drunken spree.
I hope this is now straightened out and I'm sorry Danny was not able to get the rest of this information before his book was published.
(I) THE FALL
The fall in question happened in December, 1970. Jim did not puncture his lung. He bruised a rib bone and bruised the outside of his lung tissue, but there was no puncture.
If there had been any puncture, Jim would have been hospitalized for insertion of a plastic tube to remove air and reinflate the lung (surgery). A punctured lung is treated in a hospital, not in a doctor's office.
I pointed that out to Danny years ago. I checked again with Doctor Derwin, who examined Jim a short time after the fall and saw the xrays. There was bruising. The rib was not broken and the lung was not punctured. He also bruised his leg. Yes, Jim was told to take it easy.
In the last week of December or the first week of January, Jim and I bumped into each other. He was limping and I asked him what happened. He showed me a bruise on his side that came from the fall and said his leg was still sore. Jim clearly said it was a bruised rib and lung and a badly bruised leg.
There were no bruises on Jim at all according to Janet in February March 1971.
(II) MONTH-LONG BENDER
Most of the information about how Jim really spent his last month in Los Angeles came out after Danny's book had been published. It turns out that Jim did not spend his time in a month-long bender from February 14 to March 11.
Below is further information and a partial timeline that Danny and Jerry did not know about or have access to for either NOHGOA or Wonderland.
By the end of January 1971, Jim had checked out of the Chateau and moved into Norton.
Pamela left for Paris on February 14, 1971. Jim continued to stay at Norton. This is documented in (1) Janet Erwin's Ballroom Days (2) Patricia Kennealy's book.
After Pamela left town February 14, Jim had to deal with Kennealy who had come into town to surprise Jim and see if she had a chance to get re-involved with Jim. She did not. Jim saw Kennealy on February 17th to 19th. She went home on February 20th.
Jim had met Janet earlier in February. On the 20th Jim and Janet started their relationship which continued until March 8th, three days before Jim left for Paris on March 11th.
Jim's friend Babe Hill was dating a girl who insisted that if Babe wanted to date her that Morrison also had to go out with her friend, Sarah. Jim doubled dated with Babe for about two or three weekends (one of them spent in Catalina on the Doors' boat) during February and March. Hey, Buddies do that for each other.
Jim also played touch football one weekend day in Redondo Beach.
Jim had a fight with me at Elektra's opening party on March 3rd.
He left for France on March 11th.
Not much time for a month-long drunken spree.
I hope this is now straightened out and I'm sorry Danny was not able to get the rest of this information before his book was published.
This is all very interesting and the information is appreciated, but since Danny was only 16 at the time Jim took the fall and then left for Paris... and was writing from memory.. not research or anyone elses accounts.. that passage in WA was what he remembered it to be at the time.
I don't know anything about whether Jim's lung was punctured or not, and I don't have any personal knowledge about who it was that gave Danny that information. A bruised rib-cage and damage to the tissue around the lung is still a serious injury, and one senses that Jim probably didn't "take it easy" the way his doctor told him to. A punctured lung, by the way, does not always require the insertion of a tube. This is only done if the lung collapses, which sometimes does and sometimes does not happen with a puncture. A very small puncture wound.. while causing respiratory discomfort and, in some cases, even distress can.. and often does... heal itself.
I'm also kind of curious as to how you got any information from Jim's doctor? Doctor/patient confidentiality would kind of prohibit that.. unless you're a family member.. or Jim had given written consent for you to be told of his private medical matters. Is there some stipulation to that which I'm not aware of? Even after death, personal medical records will only be released to a family member..after a whole lot of paperwork and signatures..and in some cases the police if there's some kind of inquest. It's kind of strange to think that some doctor would divulge someone's personal medical information to anyone who happened to ask. Can you clarify that for me? Thanks.
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 17 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]17661[/snapback]
Very insightful post MO, and welcome to the board!
Along with Pam, Ronay, and Varda.. Bill Siddons was also at Jim's "funeral", and so was a lady named Robyn (her last name escapes me at this moment.. but I think she was Jim's secretary...?) I've never heard any accounts of a priest being there.. and if indeed Jim _had_ been given last rites.. it would've been at the apartment.. not at the cemetary...although I haven't ever heard any account of that having happened either.
This whole thing is shrouded in mystery and always has been. Common sense has always told me that if Jim died from a "heart attack".. there would've been no secrecy. And if Jim died from some incident at the R&R Circus, that could've been proven many years ago and again.. no need for any secrecy.
Common sense also tells me that at the time of Jim's death back in 1971, noone could've known that people would still be fascinated by this 36 years later.. so it couldn't have been (at least not initially) about making money off the "mystery".
So... what's left? An "obvious" death.. one that would have no need for an autopsy.. and one that had some kind of need for secrecy. There's never been any doubt in my mind that those in The Doors "family" know the truth. Ray, John, and Robby know. Bill Siddons knows. Danny Sugerman knew. The story that people were told.. or paid.. to tell.. is not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...
As you stated, autopsies are always done when the cause of death is _not_ evident (especially in a young person). Coroner's don't go on speculation. The fact that it's been reported that one was not done on Jim Morrison tells me one of two things:
1) Money changed hands to not do one.
2) Money changed hands to destroy any record of one having been done.
But why?
We'll probably never know.
The "mystery" of Morrison's death has.. in the 36 years since he died... turned into a real money-maker. And now that the "official" story has been done to death (pun intended).. it's time to bring out a new one... the "real" truth...
Publicity makes the money machine roll baby roll....
This is all just my opinion, and I'm sure some of you will disagree with it. And that's fine. But the bottom line to me.. using real common sense... is this:
The 2 scenarios (heart attack.. and OD) could've been easily proven (with an autopsy) if one of them was indeed how he died. No autopsy = cause of death evident.
Good post MO.
Along with Pam, Ronay, and Varda.. Bill Siddons was also at Jim's "funeral", and so was a lady named Robyn (her last name escapes me at this moment.. but I think she was Jim's secretary...?) I've never heard any accounts of a priest being there.. and if indeed Jim _had_ been given last rites.. it would've been at the apartment.. not at the cemetary...although I haven't ever heard any account of that having happened either.
This whole thing is shrouded in mystery and always has been. Common sense has always told me that if Jim died from a "heart attack".. there would've been no secrecy. And if Jim died from some incident at the R&R Circus, that could've been proven many years ago and again.. no need for any secrecy.
Common sense also tells me that at the time of Jim's death back in 1971, noone could've known that people would still be fascinated by this 36 years later.. so it couldn't have been (at least not initially) about making money off the "mystery".
So... what's left? An "obvious" death.. one that would have no need for an autopsy.. and one that had some kind of need for secrecy. There's never been any doubt in my mind that those in The Doors "family" know the truth. Ray, John, and Robby know. Bill Siddons knows. Danny Sugerman knew. The story that people were told.. or paid.. to tell.. is not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...
As you stated, autopsies are always done when the cause of death is _not_ evident (especially in a young person). Coroner's don't go on speculation. The fact that it's been reported that one was not done on Jim Morrison tells me one of two things:
1) Money changed hands to not do one.
2) Money changed hands to destroy any record of one having been done.
But why?
We'll probably never know.
The "mystery" of Morrison's death has.. in the 36 years since he died... turned into a real money-maker. And now that the "official" story has been done to death (pun intended).. it's time to bring out a new one... the "real" truth...
Publicity makes the money machine roll baby roll....
This is all just my opinion, and I'm sure some of you will disagree with it. And that's fine. But the bottom line to me.. using real common sense... is this:
The 2 scenarios (heart attack.. and OD) could've been easily proven (with an autopsy) if one of them was indeed how he died. No autopsy = cause of death evident.
Good post MO.
Now that was a mouthful,
you said it.
Indeed my friend, indeed.
Bruises, bruises
was it on the left side?
You better say no.
The bruises are all over, sprawling.
And the one that's the hardest to heal it's in the soul.
And when the soul is stubborn there is strong remedy: disease.
Here are some more sam bernett links for you all-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20070712_doors.shtml
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...C-mostviewedbox
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6294730.stm
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2765576.ece
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/artic...%20bath_1036670
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20070712_doors.shtml
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...l%3Den%26sa%3DG
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...C-mostviewedbox
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6294730.stm
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2765576.ece
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/artic...%20bath_1036670
The 'month-long bender' doesn't sound right to me either. I was in touch with Jim telephonically, at the label, for the months preceding his departure for Paris - I wasn't hearing that Jim was behaving in any abnormal fashion at that time -- in fact, he seemed determined to make some changes in his lifestyle as well as his location.
I walked him over to the Elektra party on March 3, which was the first time I had seen him physically in some time. He was still bearded and heavy-set. However, he didn't appear to be in ill-health, and was very quiet and sober. His concerns about coming over to the party, which started in the late afternoon, and which Jim was observing from a window-seat on the second floor of the Clear Thoughts building, was that the executives of Elektra, who had all flown out from New York, were mad at him about the Miami situation. I told him, truthfully, that they were not. He then came over to the party, all dressed in black and, as I said, very sober. Everyone was delighted to see him. I left him with his friends, and went home after hanging out for a while. Long day.
The next morning, I checked with Billy James about Jim's behavior - did he get drunk or cause trouble, etc? Billy said absolutely not. That he and Jim had visited for a while in Billy's office, and though Jim was having a glass or two of wine, his behavior was what you would expect from someone at a party. He did not get rowdy, or behave in an inappropriate fashion.
Each time I spoke with him on the phone, he was always sober.
However, if he fell from a window and banged onto his left side, let alone bruised his lung, that is concerning. I had not heard that before.
I do agree that the failure to perform an autopsy is odd. I believe it is the law in France if someone dies under the sort of circumstances that Jim did.
As far as all this mystery about his death - well, it helps the legend along if nothing else. But, I do not believe that anyone deliberately killed Jim Morrison. There may be some who have a moral responsibility, but that is not a legal issue.
I walked him over to the Elektra party on March 3, which was the first time I had seen him physically in some time. He was still bearded and heavy-set. However, he didn't appear to be in ill-health, and was very quiet and sober. His concerns about coming over to the party, which started in the late afternoon, and which Jim was observing from a window-seat on the second floor of the Clear Thoughts building, was that the executives of Elektra, who had all flown out from New York, were mad at him about the Miami situation. I told him, truthfully, that they were not. He then came over to the party, all dressed in black and, as I said, very sober. Everyone was delighted to see him. I left him with his friends, and went home after hanging out for a while. Long day.
The next morning, I checked with Billy James about Jim's behavior - did he get drunk or cause trouble, etc? Billy said absolutely not. That he and Jim had visited for a while in Billy's office, and though Jim was having a glass or two of wine, his behavior was what you would expect from someone at a party. He did not get rowdy, or behave in an inappropriate fashion.
Each time I spoke with him on the phone, he was always sober.
However, if he fell from a window and banged onto his left side, let alone bruised his lung, that is concerning. I had not heard that before.
I do agree that the failure to perform an autopsy is odd. I believe it is the law in France if someone dies under the sort of circumstances that Jim did.
As far as all this mystery about his death - well, it helps the legend along if nothing else. But, I do not believe that anyone deliberately killed Jim Morrison. There may be some who have a moral responsibility, but that is not a legal issue.
Not to be argumentative in any way, but wasn't it pretty well documented that egged on by Tom Baker, that Jim caused some problems at this same party? I remember reading about this in several books.
After reading the accounts of both Salli and Mewsical, and taking into consideration that they were both somewhat privy to Jim's condition before he left for Paris, I'm going to defer to the personal knowledge they have about this. It is, in fact, nice to hear that Jim was in good spirits and for the most part, sober.
I have always understood the term "on a bender" to mean kind of pushing the envelope and living life to the fullest.. with an almost 'what the hell' attitude. I didn't really associate it with any kind of drunken behavior until it was pointed out here. I appreciate the explanation and can now understand why Jim was not, by this definition, "on a bender". And good for him.
I have always understood the term "on a bender" to mean kind of pushing the envelope and living life to the fullest.. with an almost 'what the hell' attitude. I didn't really associate it with any kind of drunken behavior until it was pointed out here. I appreciate the explanation and can now understand why Jim was not, by this definition, "on a bender". And good for him.
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 18 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]17702[/snapback]
Not to be argumentative in any way, but wasn't it pretty well documented that egged on by Tom Baker, that Jim caused some problems at this same party? I remember reading about this in several books.
Tom Baker was not, to my knowledge, at the party. It only ran until about 9 p.m. The offices had to be cleaned up and ready for work the next day. Jim may have gone on someplace else and hooked up with Baker. Jim came alone to the party - I walked him across the road at around 5:00 maybe? It was still daylight. When I came up the stairs of the Clear Thoughts building and saw him sitting on the window seat on the landing, he turned and asked me "What's going on over there?" I told him it was a party for the opening of the new offices, and that I had been asked by Bruce Harris and Steve Harris to come and get him, as they had spotted him sitting in the window.
I stayed at the party myself until about 8 or so. Salli was also there, and she has mentioned that Jim was later joined by a friend of his, Sarah. No mention of Mr. Baker. Jim came over to Themis, with friend Sarah, and then went back over to the party. If I tell you there was no problem with him, you'll have to believe it. Jac was there, and all the label execs. Jim would not have misbehaved to any great extent. He was already worried that they were p.o.'ed at him over Miami.
However, I'd be interested to know exactly who said what and in which book.
I have just killed about two hours and most of a box of Girl Scout cookies while filipping thru some of my better books about Jim and the Doors. And I don't find any mention of Jim being egged on by Tom Baker and smashing up some typewriters and pulling phones out of the wall at the Elektra office. While I have a few other books to go through, I wonder where and why the hell this story got stuck in my brain?
As always I'M just trying to get to the truth and seperate the fact from fiction.
Does anyone know where this "story' originates from?
As always I'M just trying to get to the truth and seperate the fact from fiction.
Does anyone know where this "story' originates from?
QUOTE(Moses Jones @ Jul 18 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]17708[/snapback]
I have just killed about two hours and most of a box of Girl Scout cookies while filipping thru some of my better books about Jim and the Doors. And I don't find any mention of Jim being egged on by Tom Baker and smashing up some typewriters and pulling phones out of the wall at the Elektra office. While I have a few other books to go through, I wonder where and why the hell this story got stuck in my brain?
As always I'M just trying to get to the truth and seperate the fact from fiction.
Does anyone know where this "story' originates from?
As always I'M just trying to get to the truth and seperate the fact from fiction.
Does anyone know where this "story' originates from?
He never did any such thing, that's nonsense. I would have known about that for sure. I worked with the office manager, Suzanne Helms, so any damage to equipment like phones or typewriters would have been our responsibility to fix. Jim was quite intimidated by Suzanne, so he wouldn't have DARED do such a thing! As I said, he left at the same time as everybody else, and was behaving normally. I don't think he was even hanging out with Tom any longer at that point. But, I appreciate the research effort, and hope you enjoyed the cookies!
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 18 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]17714[/snapback]
He never did any such thing, that's nonsense. I would have known about that for sure. I worked with the office manager, Suzanne Helms, so any damage to equipment like phones or typewriters would have been our responsibility to fix. Jim was quite intimidated by Suzanne, so he wouldn't have DARED do such a thing! As I said, he left at the same time as everybody else, and was behaving normally. I don't think he was even hanging out with Tom any longer at that point. But, I appreciate the research effort, and hope you enjoyed the cookies!
It is true that Jim smashed new IBM typewriters and poured beer into filing cabinets during the mixing of Soft Parade. Tom Baker said Jim was a hypocrite and should move to Sacramento with all the bureaucrats. They cleaned the mess up quickly and no one ever mentioned it to Jim when he came in the next day. Jim's money financed the new offices.
These are two separate instances we are talking about. Apparently Morrison was standing on the roof of the building across the street, that is where they would have seen him. Maybe by the time you got over there Jim had moved to a window. Jim started doing something at the party inside an office which caused him to be escorted out and put into a limo. You do know that Jim switched from sober to ( you fill in the word) at the drop of a drum beat.
QUOTE(rotaryperception @ Jul 18 2007, 07:15 PM) [snapback]17718[/snapback]
It is true that Jim smashed new IBM typewriters and poured beer into filing cabinets during the mixing of Soft Parade. Tom Baker said Jim was a hypocrite and should move to Sacramento with all the bureaucrats. They cleaned the mess up quickly and no one ever mentioned it to Jim when he came in the next day. Jim's money financed the new offices.
These are two separate instances we are talking about. Apparently Morrison was standing on the roof of the building across the street, that is where they would have seen him. Maybe by the time you got over there Jim had moved to a window. Jim started doing something at the party inside an office which caused him to be escorted out and put into a limo. You do know that Jim switched from sober to ( you fill in the word) at the drop of a drum beat.
These are two separate instances we are talking about. Apparently Morrison was standing on the roof of the building across the street, that is where they would have seen him. Maybe by the time you got over there Jim had moved to a window. Jim started doing something at the party inside an office which caused him to be escorted out and put into a limo. You do know that Jim switched from sober to ( you fill in the word) at the drop of a drum beat.
I am sorry to disappoint you but Jim was not standing on the roof of anywhere. I actually worked in the hallway, and the doors were open to the street - I had an unobstructed view of the Clear Thoughts building. That afternoon, Bruce and Steve were standing on the steps outside the office, talking. I was in the hallway at all times - helping set things up for the party and answering the phones. I went outside to join them, when they beckoned me over and told me Morrison was sitting in the window - which a big circular thing, covered in iron scrollwork - and had been doing so for about twenty minutes or so. I think if he'd been standing on the roof, they would have said so. They both thought he was trying to conceal himself, and in fact, he was hard to spot in that location, but Bruce Harris had seen him. They asked me to go and get him because "you're his friend." I asked them how they figured that, and we had a conversation about it. No, he did NOT do anything at the party inside an office - sorry, no drama at all. He came over, had a few drinks, visited with people who were at the party, hooked up with his friend Sarah, and later left. He did not come over in a limo, he came over on his two feet. I assume he left the same way, or in a friend's car.
Again, no it was not "Jim's money" that financed the offices. It was a loan from the Kinney Parking Corporation, who were the funding source for Warner-Elektra-Atlantic Distributors. I was there, RP. I saw the Kinney representatives come and inspect the building while it was still under construction.
Amazing how these stories get started.
And by the time I encountered Jim again in late 1970, he was not some drunken rock star. I know some of you want him to be that, but he simply wasn't. Jim became a rock star sort of by accident, It was not something he had planned on. The opportunity presented itself and he simply took it. It worked out pretty well, but it was not something he was enjoying very much by 1970. By 1971, he was done with it.
QUOTE(Salli @ Jul 17 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]17679[/snapback]
The DJ was in a different club from the R&RC. It was around 4 or 5 in the morning and he announced it to maybe 25 people who were in the club at the time. Rumors were already circulating.
The only way his death defines him is to identify the frame of mind he was in when he died and the miind set of the people around him.
Otherwise, I agree. It is our work that should define us.
The only way his death defines him is to identify the frame of mind he was in when he died and the miind set of the people around him.
Otherwise, I agree. It is our work that should define us.
I totally agree
but I must admit this fall thing got me thinking a little bit Sally. If Jim indeed had suffered a contusion to the lung...
Is is possible that the area of contusion weakened that part of his lung.....which months later caused a pneumothorax (hole in the lung)?
this condition, especially if one is intoxicated and passes out could absolutely be fatal...
in fact I am sorry to say that a childhood friend of mine died in his sleep from a pnuemothorax and he had only had a couple of beers
I am going to ask a trauma-surgeon this weekend.......but I am almost certain a contusion could weaken the lung, the question is how long...
Also, thanks for all the great info
QUOTE(Ia woman @ Jul 18 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]17722[/snapback]
I totally agree
but I must admit this fall thing got me thinking a little bit Sally. If Jim indeed had suffered a contusion to the lung...
Is is possible that the area of contusion weakened that part of his lung.....which months later caused a pneumothorax (hole in the lung)?
this condition, especially if one is intoxicated and passes out could absolutely be fatal...
in fact I am sorry to say that a childhood friend of mine died in his sleep from a pnuemothorax and he had only had a couple of beers
I am going to ask a trauma-surgeon this weekend.......but I am almost certain a contusion could weaken the lung, the question is how long...
Also, thanks for all the great info
but I must admit this fall thing got me thinking a little bit Sally. If Jim indeed had suffered a contusion to the lung...
Is is possible that the area of contusion weakened that part of his lung.....which months later caused a pneumothorax (hole in the lung)?
this condition, especially if one is intoxicated and passes out could absolutely be fatal...
in fact I am sorry to say that a childhood friend of mine died in his sleep from a pnuemothorax and he had only had a couple of beers
I am going to ask a trauma-surgeon this weekend.......but I am almost certain a contusion could weaken the lung, the question is how long...
Also, thanks for all the great info
That's actually a very good question. I suppose it is possible that a contusion of the lung.. or bruising around the lung.. could very well weaken the lung over time. I guess the time-frame would revolve around the person with the injury, and whether or not they took it easy.. or continued abusing their body. I would think that there's no "textbook" answer for this.. it would probably depend on the severity of the injury and the lifestyle of the person (although I am interested in what the trauma surgeon has to say, so please post his response when you get it...)
In The Doors coffeetable book (and I have no idea how "accurate" it is...) both Bill Siddons and Pam's mother say that it's their feeling that Jim died from a blood clot involving the lung.. which probably travelled to the heart. If you take into account the previous lung injury.. and the idea that Jim probably did _not_ take time to rest and recuperate.... this makes the most sense to me. In most of the accounts I've read.. including those of the paramedics that were there.. there's a pretty consistant mention of there being a reddish mark or bruise on Jim's chest when he was found. This too, would perhaps indicate a blood clot...as would the hiccups that he reportedly had. Hiccups come from the diaphragm (inhaling to pull air into the lungs, exhaling to push air out of the lungs).. and if there's a blockage of some kind..too much air.. lodged food..a blood clot...any reason why the lungs aren't processing the air properly...then the almost spastic movement of the diaphragm manifests itself as hiccups.
I'm not sure that we'll ever know what really happened in Paris that morning.. but from all I've heard and read.. the blood-clot scenario seems the most logical.. at least to me.....
But then again... it still doesn't explain the absence of an autopsy.. as the cause of death in this scenario would not be "obvious" enough to not warrant one.....
The mind wobbles....
I am inclined towards the blood clot theory also, as I've mentioned elsewhere - especially as I did not know about the fall from the second floor window at the Chateau. If Siddons said so in the coffee table book, I'll consider it, pending some other finding. I knew Bill well in those days (and thereafter, when he partnered with Peter Golden and managed Jackson Browne), and he never at any time seemed to feel that Jim had died of anything other than natural causes. I will be very interested to hear the opinion of the trauma surgeon, Ia. Thanks for checking that out. Keeping an open mind, but maybe this could be the answer, not heroin, etc.
I guess the time frame would be 4 months from his fall to his death?
I guess the time frame would be 4 months from his fall to his death?
QUOTE(mewsical @ Jul 18 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]17699[/snapback]
However, if he fell from a window and banged onto his left side...
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 19 2007, 10:32 AM) [snapback]17736[/snapback]
Why is that funny particularly?
QUOTE(MO2826 @ Jul 16 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]17658[/snapback]
Some good questions have been brought up about this story. Where was Pam?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
Was there a priest at Jim's burial?
I've heard that only 3 or 4 people were at Jim's funeral. And those people were Pam, Madame Collinette (an unknown lady) Ronay and maybe Agnes Varda.
But was there a priest?
A priest to give the last sacraments.
We know there was no autopsy and this is reveals much. Because France is not in the 3rd world, it's the second birth place of Democracy in Europe. They don't neglect these issues and they are not the kind of culture that would let it pass just like that. This means that whatever happened to Jim was so obvious that there was no need for an autopsy. For example, nobody made autopsies to the gangsters who died on Valentine's day under the orders of Al Capone. It would be silly to make an autopsy of those guys when their cause of death was obvious.
Maybe the same happened to Jim, it's what I think because France is a very civilized country and far from being negligent.
My question is: was there a priest at Jim's burial?
A priest to give the last sacraments?
It was 1971.
Why and in what cases/circumstances does the catholic church deny or refuse these last sacraments to a dead person?
Have you ever thought about it?
The only circumstances in which the catholic church doesn’t give the last sacraments to a deceased (in 1971, now it is not that way anymore) is when the person has committed suicide.
Don’t know if you’re referring to that, but i think that if there wasn’t a priest in jim’s burial was because no one really bothered to search for one, not because jim had committed suicide. Just my opinion.
QUOTE(the mad hatter @ Jul 19 2007, 11:04 AM) [snapback]17739[/snapback]
The only circumstances in which the catholic church doesn’t give the last sacraments to a deceased (in 1971, now it is not that way anymore) is when the person has committed suicide.
Don’t know if you’re referring to that, but i think that if there wasn’t a priest in jim’s burial was because no one really bothered to search for one, not because jim had committed suicide. Just my opinion.
Don’t know if you’re referring to that, but i think that if there wasn’t a priest in jim’s burial was because no one really bothered to search for one, not because jim had committed suicide. Just my opinion.
I read in Bruce Botnick's interview that Jim had gone across the street from Sunset Sound to the Church of the Blessed Sacrament on Sunset and spent some time in there. It's one of the big Catholic churches in Hollywood. I've been there many times myself. However, Jim was not a Catholic, and therefore Last Rites would not be appropriate in his case.
I have no idea if a priest officiated, but Jim is buried in consecrated ground. The cemetery was founded by the Jesuits and named after a Jesuit priest, confessor to the famous Louis XIV. Here's more on Pere LaChaise.
Francois de la Chaise
QUOTE(gotothelight @ Jul 19 2007, 06:06 AM) [snapback]17730[/snapback]
That's actually a very good question. I suppose it is possible that a contusion of the lung.. or bruising around the lung.. could very well weaken the lung over time. I guess the time-frame would revolve around the person with the injury, and whether or not they took it easy.. or continued abusing their body. I would think that there's no "textbook" answer for this.. it would probably depend on the severity of the injury and the lifestyle of the person (although I am interested in what the trauma surgeon has to say, so please post his response when you get it...)
In The Doors coffeetable book (and I have no idea how "accurate" it is...) both Bill Siddons and Pam's mother say that it's their feeling that Jim died from a blood clot involving the lung.. which probably travelled to the heart. If you take into account the previous lung injury.. and the idea that Jim probably did _not_ take time to rest and recuperate.... this makes the most sense to me. In most of the accounts I've read.. including those of the paramedics that were there.. there's a pretty consistant mention of there being a reddish mark or bruise on Jim's chest when he was found. This too, would perhaps indicate a blood clot...as would the hiccups that he reportedly had. Hiccups come from the diaphragm (inhaling to pull air into the lungs, exhaling to push air out of the lungs).. and if there's a blockage of some kind..too much air.. lodged food..a blood clot...any reason why the lungs aren't processing the air properly...then the almost spastic movement of the diaphragm manifests itself as hiccups.
I'm not sure that we'll ever know what really happened in Paris that morning.. but from all I've heard and read.. the blood-clot scenario seems the most logical.. at least to me.....
But then again... it still doesn't explain the absence of an autopsy.. as the cause of death in this scenario would not be "obvious" enough to not warrant one.....
The mind wobbles....
In The Doors coffeetable book (and I have no idea how "accurate" it is...) both Bill Siddons and Pam's mother say that it's their feeling that Jim died from a blood clot involving the lung.. which probably travelled to the heart. If you take into account the previous lung injury.. and the idea that Jim probably did _not_ take time to rest and recuperate.... this makes the most sense to me. In most of the accounts I've read.. including those of the paramedics that were there.. there's a pretty consistant mention of there being a reddish mark or bruise on Jim's chest when he was found. This too, would perhaps indicate a blood clot...as would the hiccups that he reportedly had. Hiccups come from the diaphragm (inhaling to pull air into the lungs, exhaling to push air out of the lungs).. and if there's a blockage of some kind..too much air.. lodged food..a blood clot...any reason why the lungs aren't processing the air properly...then the almost spastic movement of the diaphragm manifests itself as hiccups.
I'm not sure that we'll ever know what really happened in Paris that morning.. but from all I've heard and read.. the blood-clot scenario seems the most logical.. at least to me.....
But then again... it still doesn't explain the absence of an autopsy.. as the cause of death in this scenario would not be "obvious" enough to not warrant one.....
The mind wobbles....
there is a problem with a clot from the lung traveling to the heart, I dont think it's possible.
clots in the lungs do not move, there is no system for them to travel in
the capillary exchange of blood is microscopic in the lungs there is no vessel big enough to have the clot move into the heart
however, you could have clotting in the lung from the contusion, could something like that be fatal 4-5 months later?
it seems unlikely...but, without a doubt a large clot in the lungs can be fatal...it's called a pulmonary embolism.
does anyone know if Jim had a chest x-ray in Paris?
I keep thinking of the asthmatic cough, the violent coughing
I picture an already weakened lung wall
add drugs and or alcohol, and you could have a disaster
also, a pneumothorax( a hole in the lung) could leave a bruising mark on the chest, although we do not see that alot clinically
nor do you see bruising on the chest from a clot in the heart
I think you would need a significant event for that
I will speak to the trauma surgeon this weekend
clots in the lungs do not move, there is no system for them to travel in
the capillary exchange of blood is microscopic in the lungs there is no vessel big enough to have the clot move into the heart
however, you could have clotting in the lung from the contusion, could something like that be fatal 4-5 months later?
it seems unlikely...but, without a doubt a large clot in the lungs can be fatal...it's called a pulmonary embolism.
does anyone know if Jim had a chest x-ray in Paris?
I keep thinking of the asthmatic cough, the violent coughing
I picture an already weakened lung wall
add drugs and or alcohol, and you could have a disaster
also, a pneumothorax( a hole in the lung) could leave a bruising mark on the chest, although we do not see that alot clinically
nor do you see bruising on the chest from a clot in the heart
I think you would need a significant event for that
I will speak to the trauma surgeon this weekend
QUOTE(Ia woman @ Jul 19 2007, 12:42 PM) [snapback]17743[/snapback]
there is a problem with a clot from the lung traveling to the heart, I dont think it's possible.
clots in the lungs do not move, there is no system for them to travel in
the capillary exchange of blood is microscopic in the lungs there is no vessel big enough to have the clot move into the heart
however, you could have clotting in the lung from the contusion, could something like that be fatal 4-5 months later?
it seems unlikely...but, without a doubt a large clot in the lungs can be fatal...it's called a pulmonary embolism.
does anyone know if Jim had a chest x-ray in Paris?
I keep thinking of the asthmatic cough, the violent coughing
I picture an already weakened lung wall
add drugs and or alcohol, and you could have a disaster
also, a pneumothorax( a hole in the lung) could leave a bruising mark on the chest, although we do not see that alot clinically
nor do you see bruising on the chest from a clot in the heart
I think you would need a significant event for that
I will speak to the trauma surgeon this weekend
clots in the lungs do not move, there is no system for them to travel in
the capillary exchange of blood is microscopic in the lungs there is no vessel big enough to have the clot move into the heart
however, you could have clotting in the lung from the contusion, could something like that be fatal 4-5 months later?
it seems unlikely...but, without a doubt a large clot in the lungs can be fatal...it's called a pulmonary embolism.
does anyone know if Jim had a chest x-ray in Paris?
I keep thinking of the asthmatic cough, the violent coughing
I picture an already weakened lung wall
add drugs and or alcohol, and you could have a disaster
also, a pneumothorax( a hole in the lung) could leave a bruising mark on the chest, although we do not see that alot clinically
nor do you see bruising on the chest from a clot in the heart
I think you would need a significant event for that
I will speak to the trauma surgeon this weekend
Could a blood clot from the lung travel to the brain?
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