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#21 screamofthebutterfly

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 12:13 PM

I don't see where he was whining either.  John's book is one of my favorite books about The Doors.  When I read it, I laughed, cried and got angry right along with John.  He tells it like it is.  I love his book.

#22 lizardman

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 12:55 PM

i have johns book at home and its been a long time since ive read it but i think ill read it again.what ive seen in this thread dont sound like a guy whining to me.

#23 Spectrumtacular

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Aug 8 2005, 02:48 PM)
What... this one?

A STATEMENT FROM JOHN DENSMORE – MAY 4, 1999

I have decided that enough time has elapsed, so that by now, speaking out about Ray's book will not cause too much of a stir, and sell any
copies for him. For those who are interested, the record needs to be set straight.

Ray went to film school, and had dreams of directing The Doors movie, which didn't come to pass. Because of this, he hates Oliver Stone and the film he made. Oliver liked my book, Riders On The Storm, and wrote on the back of it, therefore Ray resents me.

A band is like a family, and like families The Doors were frequently dysfunctional. Our lead singer, Jim Morrison, who we all loved and admired greatly, was an alcoholic and drug abuser. Because of the times, and our own insecurities, we failed as a group and his friend
to adequately confront Jim about his self-destructive behavior. Also, like any family, various members have different memories about what
occurred. Robby Krieger wrote on the back of my book that "this is the real story." What is so disturbing about Ray's book is that his revisionist version of history focuses on me in a total negative
light: someone with no humor, who is complaining about Jim all the time.

I couldn't survive in this world without a major dose of humor (and Ray knows this). According to Ray, I'm dumb, homophobic, too unsophisticated for New York, hated by Jim, who says "fuck you" to me
not once, but twice in one conversation. Jim never said "fuck you" to me.

While writing this book, Ray was battling with stomach ulcers, which he blamed on me. I, like Ray and Robby, am enormously proud of what
we did together musically. However, going along as if everything is OK, when someone close (Jim) is destroying himself, is called enabling....and denial. I feel that Ray's antipathy towards me is a result
of his unwillingness to confront that dark side and instead make me the focal point for his unhappiness.

On to the specific inaccuracies:

1. The book sleeve says that Ray and Jim were friends and rarely
apart until Jim left for Paris. If one checks page 69 from Riders,
when Jim trashed Ray's house, or a few pages later when Manzarek
told
Jim to get a haircut, you can see that very early on Jim got fed up
with Ray's fathering, and cut the umbilical cord once and for
all. He
resented Ray staying home with his wife Dorothy, while the three of
us looked for gigs.

2. Ray knows very well that I didn't call Jim in Paris, whinning
about him to please
come back. Jim didn't tell me to cool down, and then hangs up on
me.
He called me (I wonder why Jim's last call to any band member was
to
me and not Manzarek?). You can read the exact text from the phone
call on page 6 of my book. By that time, I knew Jim was an
uncontrollable alcoholic who couldn't be turned around and I
didn't
want him to come back. Ray was not privy to that conversation and his
version is totally made up. They don't match. It is fiction, like
many other stories in his book.

3. The whisper vocal on "Riders On The Storm" was Bruce
Botnick's (the
producer/engineer) and my idea, not Manzarek's. If one had to
choose
who was second to Jim in musical importance, it would clearly be
Robby Krieger who penned such songs as "Light My Fire,"
"Touch
Me," "Love Me Two Times," "Love Her Madly," etc.
As Teresa Cubbins
from the Dallas Morning News said, "Manzarek overplays his own
talents and contributions in his memoir. It leaves you questioning
the very thing Mr Manzarek goes to such great lengths to establish:
just how much of a hand he really had in the greatness that was The
Doors."

4. Ray is correct that sometimes I couldn't look in Jim's
eyes,
but it was because I
saw something that Ray couldn't see: Jim's premature death. I
begged
Ray for us to get off the road for years, until finally he agreed in
New Orleans. Maybe, just maybe, if he'd listened to me, and
stopped
pushing for MORE, Jim might still be alive.
As Gore Vidal said recently in a letter to the Los Angeles Times,
modern day biographers have little respect for the truth. They say
what they want to say and then put it in any characters mouth. Any
character will do. I don't see much difference between "the
fascist
Oliver Stone" (as Manzarek calls him), and The Doors keyboard
player,
when Ray twists the facts and lies to pump up his own pride.

What is so painful to me is that when I finished my book, I asked all
the principal characters to read it before it was published, making
sure I was as close to the truth as possible. After Ray read my
galleys, I changed some things at his request to protect his two
brothers.

Ray refused to show his book to me, Robby, or any of the main people
he wrote about before it came out. I didn't hear when Ray said,
"bend
over…." because he never said it.


View Post




John definately knows what he's talking about, and he's healthy about all the shit that went on back then cause he talks about the problem like it was a problem not like it was just some fact... i think ray did have some enabling issues....still does probably.

but after reading what i just read, (not having read the riders book...YET!!) i really respect the man that much more.

nothing like an alcoholic family tied into a band....

#24 Jerry

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Aug 7 2005, 12:32 AM)
So Ray's is more entertaining and John's is more truthful.


I never even finished Ray's book as it reads like a regular Hollywood movie: nice effects and events, and highly forgettable. John's book is one of the best biographies I've ever read, it reads like a novel.

Plus, after my respect for his musical work, from all the things I've read from John (website, book, interviews), I see him is a very honest and intelligent man. I prefer reading from people who are like that. Hearing / reading Ray (interviews, videos, his website, the way he speaks of the band, the Bright Midnight stuff, etc.), I see someone who is making things bigger and more important, not speaking of the feeling but of the event thus shallow, and repeating things over and over again. Ray's a great musician as far as I can hear, but he should stick to let his music do the talking.

Jerry

#25 The Keys

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE(Spectrumtacular @ Aug 12 2005, 04:42 AM)
John definately knows what he's talking about, and he's healthy about all the shit that went on back then cause he talks about the problem like it was a problem not like it was just some fact... i think ray did have some enabling issues....still does probably.

but after reading what i just read, (not having read the riders book...YET!!) i really respect the man that much more.

nothing like an alcoholic family tied into a band....

View Post




Very true Spectrumtacular, and one can see/sense the great difference between Ray's show off and worthless quests, and John's honesty.
It takes integrity and dignity to say: "A band is like a family, and like families The Doors were frequently dysfunctional. Our lead singer, Jim Morrison, who we all loved and admired greatly, was an alcoholic and drug abuser. Because of the times, and our own insecuritieswe failed as a group and his friend to adequately confront Jim about his self-destructive behavior. Also, like any family, various members have different memories about what occurred. Also, like any family, various members have different memories about what occurred. Robby Krieger wrote on the back of my book that "this is the real story." What is so disturbing about Ray's book is that his revisionist version of history focuses on me in a total negative light: someone with no humor, who is complaining about Jim all the time.
I couldn't survive in this world without a major dose of humor (and Ray knows this)
(...)
What is so painful to me is that when I finished my book, I asked all the principal characters to read it before it was published, making sure I was as close to the truth as possible. After Ray read my galleys, I changed some things at his request to protect his two brothers. (...) Ray refused to show his book to me, Robby, or any of the main people he wrote about before it came out."



Many times humour can save us from going crazy with pain.
cool.gif

Here's a link I found about an article John wrote:

http://www.idafan.com/Densmore-TheNation-July8-02.htm

#26 alisha101

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:28 AM

Hi i am new to the fourm and i was wondering does John Densmore Directly Email you? at your username on the fourm?

Alisha D. Taylor

#27 screamofthebutterfly

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:54 AM

QUOTE(alisha101 @ Aug 31 2005, 05:28 PM)
Hi i am new to the fourm and i was wondering does John Densmore Directly Email you? at your username on the fourm?

Alisha D. Taylor

View Post



I don't believe he does.  I think he does post on here every once in a while.  But as far as emailing someone, I don't think so.


#28 Eressie

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 05:31 AM

I liked the book a lot and don´t see anything whiney about it at all. The letter to Jim is very touching and emotional and it is a great way to use that letter to write the book.

#29 screamofthebutterfly

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:44 AM

I thought the letter was very touching too.  You could really feel John's pain.

#30 letsstealtheeye

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 02:48 PM

I enjoyed John's humility and humor in his book.  And sometimes he combined them, like when he commented (I don't have the context of the statement) that his mug would look at home on soldier of fortune magazine.  I was particularly impressed by that.  It reminded me of the KHIEN hexagram in I-Ching which speaks of the strength of humility.



#31 DoorsFan

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 07:04 AM

I don't think John's book was whiney.  It was truely someone pouring their heart out while telling his story.  After I was finished reading it, I thought to myslef that writting the book was more of a healing process for John, and probably helped him accept things and move on.

#32 gotothelight

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 05:16 AM

I loved John's book. I didn't come away with the feeling that he was whining at all. He seemed to be struggling with a whole lot of mixed emotions that he just wasn't sure what to do with. I saw his writing as very honest, almost painfully at times, and what I was feeling throughout the book was his real frustration at situations that he wanted to make better but didn't know how.  I've heard people say that all John did in his book was complain about Jim, so therefore he really didn't care about him at all. I disagree. By reading his words, I came away with the feeling that John cared alot about Jim, maybe more than even he realized at the time. I can't pretend to know what John was feeling, but there were moments in the book where I got the distinct impression that in the midst of everything, he felt like he lost himself.  Maybe that's what the book was really about. Crossroads. Hurting, healing, finding direction, moving on.....

Thanks.

#33 The Keys

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE(gotothelight @ Sep 6 2005, 05:16 AM)
I loved John's book. I didn't come away with the feeling that he was whining at all. He seemed to be struggling with a whole lot of mixed emotions that he just wasn't sure what to do with. I saw his writing as very honest, almost painfully at times, and what I was feeling throughout the book was his real frustration at situations that he wanted to make better but didn't know how.  I've heard people say that all John did in his book was complain about Jim, so therefore he really didn't care about him at all. I disagree. By reading his words, I came away with the feeling that John cared alot about Jim, maybe more than even he realized at the time. I can't pretend to know what John was feeling, but there were moments in the book where I got the distinct impression that in the midst of everything, he felt like he lost himself.  Maybe that's what the book was really about. Crossroads. Hurting, healing, finding direction, moving on.....

View Post



I'm sure John liked Jim a lot, maybe it was Jim who lost his self-esteem and stopped loving himself; maybe Jim ended up hating the man he had become. Damn! When I think about it I go mad!  mad.gif

I would like to know how long did John take to write Riders on the Storm.
A year? Two years? Less? More?



#34 Salli

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:11 AM

Writing a book always starts in the mind and sometimes takes years to actually put on paper, turn into a chapter and then a book.

I don't know how long it physically took John to write his book, pen to paper or fingers to typewriter or computer, but the real process of John writing his book probably started as it does with most autobiographers when he first started questioning the things that were going on and had gone on around him.

These are questions and arguments and nagging bits of memory that start to become a sentence, a note on an envelope or a piece of paper, a talk with a therapist, a chat with a friend or a stranger...and self examination of a situation or an unresolved relationship.

When I saw John in the early 1980's he was already starting to explore the questions, the possible answers, the drinking that enveloped Jim's physical, emotional and psychological being and what it had done to the band and to John, but I don't think at that time John was thinking of it as a book....just lots of personal questions.

It is my belief that John had been writing his autobiography from the time he could remember...and there are chapters he has not yet written and he will know when it is time to once again put hands to keyboard and explore the rest of a fascinating and so far wonderfully honest journey through this life.





#35 knowidea

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:45 AM

Judging from the recent article in the Times, it is apparant John has had to certainly give a lot of thought to greed.  I think it would be great if he wrote a book on it, because I think a whole book COULD be written about it.  Greed has so many tenticles, and it constantly tries to justify itself.  I think it's a trait we all struggle with in modern day.  Our society has even made it fashionable.  We're taught from a young age to get as fast and as much as you can.  It makes it all that more interesting if the author of the book has had to take the issue on in no small part.  I hope John does it because I think it could make an impact on many lives.

#36 Guest_Stuart_*

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:38 PM

I find it interesting and appropriate that John Dedicated his Book To John Lennon, John Lennon made his Personal Life Art and with  a message ie the bed in himself and Yoko did   , songs like"Julia", "Cold Turkey", "Mother " etc and Lennon was very Honest and upfront about what and why he was doing it and John D in his book put himself out there with how he feels honestly on issues regarding Jim etc,

#37 The Keys

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE(screamofthebutterfly @ Aug 11 2005, 12:13 PM)
I don't see where he was whining either.

View Post



me neither.

Jim Morrison was the whiney  mad.gif
And he is standing in my way!
And what do we do when one is standing in our way?!
We have to destroy it!
I have to destroy all the obstacles that are preventing me from growing.

I dislike people like Jim Morrison who was incoherent, arrogant and a jerk!

I'm MAD!  mad.gif

#38 rotaryperception

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE(The Keys @ Oct 27 2005, 10:22 AM) View Post


Jim Morrison was the whiney  mad.gif
And he is standing in my way!
And what do we do when one is standing in our way?!
We have to destroy it!
I have to destroy all the obstacles that are preventing me from growing.

I dislike people like Jim Morrison who was incoherent, arrogant and a jerk!

I'm MAD!  mad.gif

What about medicine for yourself, like Ozzy The Prince of Darkness is on?  The rest of the sane people out there gotta admit that Ray's theories about God are right on. We are God, the oceans, the planets, music, trees, and art. God springs up here and there. The way Ray describes that part in his book is great. He thought the guy sold him bad acid cause he split it with Dorothy; so it didn't work. He confronted the guy and found out he didn't take enough. He then got two full doses.  John's book is of course better though. His LSD trip is scary shit.
WestSide ThugLife

"

#39 worm man

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Aug 8 2005, 01:48 PM) View Post

What... this one?

[b] A STATEMENT FROM JOHN DENSMORE – MAY 4, 1999

After Ray read my galleys,


galleys

Well that sure is an old printing term...you're going to make me think your book was done letter press

#40 ask me arse

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 03:35 PM

See quoted message from the doors to remind ye all
TO ALL DOORS FANS, BOARDS MEMBERS AND MODERATORS

Here is a personal message to all of you from Ray Manzarek, John Densmore and Robby Krieger:


When we first envisioned the creation of The Doors Message Boards we had a purpose in mind –-- to foster a place for Doors fans from all over the world to come, be part of a community, and contribute to the legacy of The Doors, as well as provide a safe haven that offered support, understanding and a common, shared purpose: Love of The Doors, Jim Morrison, his poetry, our music, and everything The Doors stand for as a group. We have watched with concern as the message boards have been usurped in their purpose and, through the negativity of several members, have devolved into hate, recrimination and plain old mean-spiritedness. This is no longer a community we can support.

As The Doors, we have had personal disagreements with each other, and we have differing feelings and opinions regarding several issues that are important to us. However, we also have well over thirty years of history with each other and have had, many times over our decades together, differing viewpoints on important issues. This has never stopped us from stating our views, both personally and as Doors members – and it has never stopped us from working together towards our one common goal: the support, concern, and fostering of THE DOORS as a band.

Yes, we have each been guilty of some of the same things we see happening on the boards. Yes, we have each stumbled and sometimes said things in anger that we later regretted. We are not saints, and we are not asking you to be, either. However, The Doors are bigger than any of us individually, and we are all committed to bringing the legacy, the principles we believe in as a band, and the music of The Doors forward for the next generations to come. We have, sometimes with great difficulty and inner turmoil, put our personal feelings aside in order to cooperate in this endeavor. Now we are asking each of you to do the same.

We have decided to make some changes to our message boards. Many of you have strong opinions on issues that are important to you. We encourage you to express your opinions, but to do so IN AN ATMOSPHERE OF LOVE AND SUPPORT, contributing to a positive, uplifting environment where all Doors fans can come. We are not interested in supporting an environment where participants are called names, ridiculed, or viciously attacked, whether the target be any one of you, us, our management team, our advisors or anyone else (with the possible exception of George W. Bush).

To help in this endeavor, effective immediately we are moving the ROTS board, and all individual member and member project threads, off of The Doors Message Boards and onto each member’s own website. You may go to these individual websites to discuss your opinions about ROTS, Tribaljazz, The Butts Band, The Robby Krieger Band, and other issues not related to The Doors as a whole. However, none of us will tolerate rude behavior on our individual sites, either. We are not interested in anyone coming here to ridicule any one of us, or any of you, for any reason. If you want to do that, find another forum – it’s a free country and a wide world, but here on The Doors Message Boards and on our individual boards, it will not be tolerated.

We have instructed our manager, Jeff Jampol, to watch over the boards, and to permanently ban any member making incendiary or name-calling attacks in their posts. His word will be final and irrevocable. If you disagree with anything that is going on, or with an individual band member’s stance on an issue, we are not censoring you – you are free to speak your mind, in a positive, uplifting, contributory way.

Don’t forget, we have been brothers-in-arms for well over three decades, and none of us is willing to let outsiders or fans come between us, even though we may have attacked each other in the past. That is sometimes - sadly - what brothers do. Yes, there have been a lot of hurt feelings among us, angry sentiments, even bitter infighting that may take a long time to heal – if ever. But we all stand together when it comes to The Doors, and the legacy we wish to leave behind, and we will close ranks to defend against any attacks from outside our inner circle, no matter who the target – or the attacker - may be.

If you wish to go sound off and attack The Doors – or any one of us - feel free to do so, but not on The Doors Message Boards, which we finance and make available to you as a service. We do, however, look forward to continuing to facilitate the spirited discussions among our fans, and even our critics, that we have come to appreciate. Just leave the personal animosities, name-calling, accusations and viciousness at home. Or write to your congressperson!

Love -

Ray Manzarek, John Densmore and Robby Krieger
THE DOORS[




quote name='TheWallsScreamedPoetry' date='Aug 8 2005, 09:48 PM' post='202']
What... this one?

A STATEMENT FROM JOHN DENSMORE – MAY 4, 1999

I have decided that enough time has elapsed, so that by now, speaking out about Ray's book will not cause too much of a stir, and sell any
copies for him. For those who are interested, the record needs to be set straight.

Ray went to film school, and had dreams of directing The Doors movie, which didn't come to pass. Because of this, he hates Oliver Stone and the film he made. Oliver liked my book, Riders On The Storm, and wrote on the back of it, therefore Ray resents me.

A band is like a family, and like families The Doors were frequently dysfunctional. Our lead singer, Jim Morrison, who we all loved and admired greatly, was an alcoholic and drug abuser. Because of the times, and our own insecurities, we failed as a group and his friend
to adequately confront Jim about his self-destructive behavior. Also, like any family, various members have different memories about what
occurred. Robby Krieger wrote on the back of my book that "this is the real story." What is so disturbing about Ray's book is that his revisionist version of history focuses on me in a total negative
light: someone with no humor, who is complaining about Jim all the time.

I couldn't survive in this world without a major dose of humor (and Ray knows this). According to Ray, I'm dumb, homophobic, too unsophisticated for New York, hated by Jim, who says "fuck you" to me
not once, but twice in one conversation. Jim never said "fuck you" to me.

While writing this book, Ray was battling with stomach ulcers, which he blamed on me. I, like Ray and Robby, am enormously proud of what
we did together musically. However, going along as if everything is OK, when someone close (Jim) is destroying himself, is called enabling....and denial. I feel that Ray's antipathy towards me is a result
of his unwillingness to confront that dark side and instead make me the focal point for his unhappiness.

On to the specific inaccuracies:

1. The book sleeve says that Ray and Jim were friends and rarely
apart until Jim left for Paris. If one checks page 69 from Riders,
when Jim trashed Ray's house, or a few pages later when Manzarek
told
Jim to get a haircut, you can see that very early on Jim got fed up
with Ray's fathering, and cut the umbilical cord once and for
all. He
resented Ray staying home with his wife Dorothy, while the three of
us looked for gigs.

2. Ray knows very well that I didn't call Jim in Paris, whinning
about him to please
come back. Jim didn't tell me to cool down, and then hangs up on
me.
He called me (I wonder why Jim's last call to any band member was
to
me and not Manzarek?). You can read the exact text from the phone
call on page 6 of my book. By that time, I knew Jim was an
uncontrollable alcoholic who couldn't be turned around and I
didn't
want him to come back. Ray was not privy to that conversation and his
version is totally made up. They don't match. It is fiction, like
many other stories in his book.

3. The whisper vocal on "Riders On The Storm" was Bruce
Botnick's (the
producer/engineer) and my idea, not Manzarek's. If one had to
choose
who was second to Jim in musical importance, it would clearly be
Robby Krieger who penned such songs as "Light My Fire,"
"Touch
Me," "Love Me Two Times," "Love Her Madly," etc.
As Teresa Cubbins
from the Dallas Morning News said, "Manzarek overplays his own
talents and contributions in his memoir. It leaves you questioning
the very thing Mr Manzarek goes to such great lengths to establish:
just how much of a hand he really had in the greatness that was The
Doors."

4. Ray is correct that sometimes I couldn't look in Jim's
eyes,
but it was because I
saw something that Ray couldn't see: Jim's premature death. I
begged
Ray for us to get off the road for years, until finally he agreed in
New Orleans. Maybe, just maybe, if he'd listened to me, and
stopped
pushing for MORE, Jim might still be alive.
As Gore Vidal said recently in a letter to the Los Angeles Times,
modern day biographers have little respect for the truth. They say
what they want to say and then put it in any characters mouth. Any
character will do. I don't see much difference between "the
fascist
Oliver Stone" (as Manzarek calls him), and The Doors keyboard
player,
when Ray twists the facts and lies to pump up his own pride.

What is so painful to me is that when I finished my book, I asked all
the principal characters to read it before it was published, making
sure I was as close to the truth as possible. After Ray read my
galleys, I changed some things at his request to protect his two
brothers.

Ray refused to show his book to me, Robby, or any of the main people
he wrote about before it came out. I didn't hear when Ray said,
"bend
over…." because he never said it.


[/quote]





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