I keep hearing folks, including John himself mention that he may have been a bit whiney on some topics. Maybe I'm just whiny myself because I don't see it lol. I see him making the same observations I would have. Maybe its because I too have some alcohol abusing friends and it's not fun.
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Whiney?
Started by
OtherCircles
, Aug 06 2005 02:30 PM
39 replies to this topic
#2 Guest_TheWallsScreamedPoetry_*
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 03:32 PM
Yeah I thought that when I first read it but it was just John's way of telling the story. Over time and reading it more than once the book can be seen for what it is a truly excellent history of the Doors from the perspective of one who was there. Same as Ray's book which I found more entertaining that John's but then Ray's is told from his perspective and he is more extrovert than John and he tends to fill out his narrative with a more fantastical vision of what happened.
So Ray's is more entertaining and John's is more truthful.
Together I love both books as they provide an essential history of The Doors Myth & reality. If I had to choose between them I would choose Ray's tale but only by the width of one of the pages. Two of the best Doors books on the market!
So Ray's is more entertaining and John's is more truthful.
Together I love both books as they provide an essential history of The Doors Myth & reality. If I had to choose between them I would choose Ray's tale but only by the width of one of the pages. Two of the best Doors books on the market!
#3
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 04:34 PM
I gotta say i like Johns better. It's written alot more creatively like an actual novel. With flash forwards and flashbacks and how those different things at different times in his life relate to each other.
Rays book is like "..... this happened.. and then this happened.. and a few more things happened... im great, johns a homophobe, jims dead.. the end" Oh yea and few thousand references to greek gods.
Rays book is like "..... this happened.. and then this happened.. and a few more things happened... im great, johns a homophobe, jims dead.. the end" Oh yea and few thousand references to greek gods.
#4
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Posted 06 August 2005 - 04:56 PM
QUOTE(OtherCircles @ Aug 6 2005, 07:34 PM)
I gotta say i like Johns better. It's written alot more creatively like an actual novel. With flash forwards and flashbacks and how those different things at different times in his life relate to each other.
Rays book is like "..... this happened.. and then this happened.. and a few more things happened... im great, johns a homophobe, jims dead.. the end" Oh yea and few thousand references to greek gods.
Rays book is like "..... this happened.. and then this happened.. and a few more things happened... im great, johns a homophobe, jims dead.. the end" Oh yea and few thousand references to greek gods.
John's book is the best IMO and I've been reading these books a long time. The Poet In Exile was a piece of whiney, if you wanna read whiney books.
#5
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 04:52 AM
i dont consider it whiney at all...john is has been more realistic with his book, he has told it the way it happened and not made a mythical story out of it. i liked ray's book, but prefered john's book. it seemed more factual as well about the different gigs and what not.
#6
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 09:12 AM
I personally don’t feel it was whiney, everyone has their harps. Ray’s is good too but I don’t care for his advocating of drugs, or plugs for Doors material.
#7
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 09:24 AM
After years of reading books on Jim and The Doors, John's book was a breath of true fresh air...
Not only because it was written by someone who actually lived the whole thing, but because it sounds down to earth and very realistic.... his stories and points of view just plain made sense to me.... It was the perspective of a natural guy, a musician who was aware he was in a great band and wanted it to give their best always...
I never found it "whiney" at all.... hell, I think John had a lot more patience than I would have...
To this day, John's book remains my favourite...
Not only because it was written by someone who actually lived the whole thing, but because it sounds down to earth and very realistic.... his stories and points of view just plain made sense to me.... It was the perspective of a natural guy, a musician who was aware he was in a great band and wanted it to give their best always...
I never found it "whiney" at all.... hell, I think John had a lot more patience than I would have...
To this day, John's book remains my favourite...
#8
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 07:16 PM
I want to read this book BADLY! But I can´t find it anywhere in Brazil. I searched for it a lot...I´ll have to import it someday through amazon or something.
I´ve read enough Doors biographies I think, but John´s is still one I hope to read someday.
edit: about the whiney part...did you guys read an open letter that JOhn wrote back in the days that Light My Fire came out? Ray is the one that highlights this whiny side of John. John desagree with that and he made some good points I think, on that letter.
I´ve read enough Doors biographies I think, but John´s is still one I hope to read someday.
edit: about the whiney part...did you guys read an open letter that JOhn wrote back in the days that Light My Fire came out? Ray is the one that highlights this whiny side of John. John desagree with that and he made some good points I think, on that letter.
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 09:28 PM
I thought Riders was a great read. I especially enjoyed the introspective aspects of the book. To me it was an honest historical document with an autobiographical edge.
Jim
Jim
QUOTE(Sunday Trucker @ Aug 8 2005, 03:16 AM)
I want to read this book BADLY! But I can´t find it anywhere in Brazil. I searched for it a lot...I´ll have to import it someday through amazon or something.
I´ve read enough Doors biographies I think, but John´s is still one I hope to read someday.
edit: about the whiney part...did you guys read an open letter that JOhn wrote back in the days that Light My Fire came out? Ray is the one that highlights this whiny side of John. John desagree with that and he made some good points I think, on that letter.
I´ve read enough Doors biographies I think, but John´s is still one I hope to read someday.
edit: about the whiney part...did you guys read an open letter that JOhn wrote back in the days that Light My Fire came out? Ray is the one that highlights this whiny side of John. John desagree with that and he made some good points I think, on that letter.
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Posted 07 August 2005 - 11:32 PM
QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Aug 7 2005, 12:32 AM)
So Ray's is more entertaining and John's is more truthful.
Together I love both books as they provide an essential history of The Doors Myth & reality.
Together I love both books as they provide an essential history of The Doors Myth & reality.
Exactly.
Ray's book is probably a bit more entertaining, because it contains more funny stories and is not so 'negative,' but then I question some of his stories...I never did this while reading John's book...
#11 Guest_TheWallsScreamedPoetry_*
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 12:48 PM
QUOTE(Sunday Trucker @ Aug 8 2005, 03:16 AM)
edit: about the whiney part...did you guys read an open letter that JOhn wrote back in the days that Light My Fire came out? Ray is the one that highlights this whiny side of John. John desagree with that and he made some good points I think, on that letter.
What... this one?
A STATEMENT FROM JOHN DENSMORE – MAY 4, 1999
I have decided that enough time has elapsed, so that by now, speaking out about Ray's book will not cause too much of a stir, and sell any
copies for him. For those who are interested, the record needs to be set straight.
Ray went to film school, and had dreams of directing The Doors movie, which didn't come to pass. Because of this, he hates Oliver Stone and the film he made. Oliver liked my book, Riders On The Storm, and wrote on the back of it, therefore Ray resents me.
A band is like a family, and like families The Doors were frequently dysfunctional. Our lead singer, Jim Morrison, who we all loved and admired greatly, was an alcoholic and drug abuser. Because of the times, and our own insecurities, we failed as a group and his friend
to adequately confront Jim about his self-destructive behavior. Also, like any family, various members have different memories about what
occurred. Robby Krieger wrote on the back of my book that "this is the real story." What is so disturbing about Ray's book is that his revisionist version of history focuses on me in a total negative
light: someone with no humor, who is complaining about Jim all the time.
I couldn't survive in this world without a major dose of humor (and Ray knows this). According to Ray, I'm dumb, homophobic, too unsophisticated for New York, hated by Jim, who says "fuck you" to me
not once, but twice in one conversation. Jim never said "fuck you" to me.
While writing this book, Ray was battling with stomach ulcers, which he blamed on me. I, like Ray and Robby, am enormously proud of what
we did together musically. However, going along as if everything is OK, when someone close (Jim) is destroying himself, is called enabling....and denial. I feel that Ray's antipathy towards me is a result
of his unwillingness to confront that dark side and instead make me the focal point for his unhappiness.
On to the specific inaccuracies:
1. The book sleeve says that Ray and Jim were friends and rarely
apart until Jim left for Paris. If one checks page 69 from Riders,
when Jim trashed Ray's house, or a few pages later when Manzarek
told
Jim to get a haircut, you can see that very early on Jim got fed up
with Ray's fathering, and cut the umbilical cord once and for
all. He
resented Ray staying home with his wife Dorothy, while the three of
us looked for gigs.
2. Ray knows very well that I didn't call Jim in Paris, whinning
about him to please
come back. Jim didn't tell me to cool down, and then hangs up on
me.
He called me (I wonder why Jim's last call to any band member was
to
me and not Manzarek?). You can read the exact text from the phone
call on page 6 of my book. By that time, I knew Jim was an
uncontrollable alcoholic who couldn't be turned around and I
didn't
want him to come back. Ray was not privy to that conversation and his
version is totally made up. They don't match. It is fiction, like
many other stories in his book.
3. The whisper vocal on "Riders On The Storm" was Bruce
Botnick's (the
producer/engineer) and my idea, not Manzarek's. If one had to
choose
who was second to Jim in musical importance, it would clearly be
Robby Krieger who penned such songs as "Light My Fire,"
"Touch
Me," "Love Me Two Times," "Love Her Madly," etc.
As Teresa Cubbins
from the Dallas Morning News said, "Manzarek overplays his own
talents and contributions in his memoir. It leaves you questioning
the very thing Mr Manzarek goes to such great lengths to establish:
just how much of a hand he really had in the greatness that was The
Doors."
4. Ray is correct that sometimes I couldn't look in Jim's
eyes,
but it was because I
saw something that Ray couldn't see: Jim's premature death. I
begged
Ray for us to get off the road for years, until finally he agreed in
New Orleans. Maybe, just maybe, if he'd listened to me, and
stopped
pushing for MORE, Jim might still be alive.
As Gore Vidal said recently in a letter to the Los Angeles Times,
modern day biographers have little respect for the truth. They say
what they want to say and then put it in any characters mouth. Any
character will do. I don't see much difference between "the
fascist
Oliver Stone" (as Manzarek calls him), and The Doors keyboard
player,
when Ray twists the facts and lies to pump up his own pride.
What is so painful to me is that when I finished my book, I asked all
the principal characters to read it before it was published, making
sure I was as close to the truth as possible. After Ray read my
galleys, I changed some things at his request to protect his two
brothers.
Ray refused to show his book to me, Robby, or any of the main people
he wrote about before it came out. I didn't hear when Ray said,
"bend
over…." because he never said it.
#12
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Posted 08 August 2005 - 12:59 PM
Back in '99 and even now this statement makes me sad, because I believe John and can't understand why Ray acts/ acted that way...I am still a big fan of Ray and his music, but it's beyond me why he is so fucked up sometimes.
#13
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 06:57 AM
Yes this one TheWallsScreamedPoetry!
The motives for these fights is beyond any of us...and its truly sad. But there are simple questions there such as why wouldn´t Ray show the book for the people involved? John was so polite when he did it and even changed things for Ray!
The motives for these fights is beyond any of us...and its truly sad. But there are simple questions there such as why wouldn´t Ray show the book for the people involved? John was so polite when he did it and even changed things for Ray!
#14
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 08:44 AM
For me, John's book was very brave.
He seems to use writing as a catharsis, and takes the reader through this rocky process of spiritual cleansing.
He is not afraid of exposing his own personal weaknesses - indeed, he *has* to do this in order to come out the other side a better person.
And he does.
It is clear that John's own tragic blood brother Jim Densmore is paralelled to John's music brother, Jim Morrison.
John had the weight of this double tragedy on his shoulders, and was able to unlock his grief by writing this book.
There is also the tragedy of his marriage.
It can therefore be read as a very human story even by those who haven't heard of the Doors.
John's open letters to Jim Morrison are heart-rending - we can only be incredibly grateful to John for doing this, for baring of his soul so that we may all understand better Jim, John, the Doors, rock music, culture and life in general.
The danger in writing this kind of book is the possibility of coming out looking like an asshole. John doesn't in any way come out of it in this way; he rather comes out of it like a genuine, sensitive human being who has never stopped learning and giving.
John's anger towards Jim is one of grief - how could you waste your talents Jim, and leave us behind like this.
Also, one's respect for John as a master musician is enhanced by this book. John was the best musician in the Doors - and that *is* saying something!
He seems to use writing as a catharsis, and takes the reader through this rocky process of spiritual cleansing.
He is not afraid of exposing his own personal weaknesses - indeed, he *has* to do this in order to come out the other side a better person.
And he does.
It is clear that John's own tragic blood brother Jim Densmore is paralelled to John's music brother, Jim Morrison.
John had the weight of this double tragedy on his shoulders, and was able to unlock his grief by writing this book.
There is also the tragedy of his marriage.
It can therefore be read as a very human story even by those who haven't heard of the Doors.
John's open letters to Jim Morrison are heart-rending - we can only be incredibly grateful to John for doing this, for baring of his soul so that we may all understand better Jim, John, the Doors, rock music, culture and life in general.
The danger in writing this kind of book is the possibility of coming out looking like an asshole. John doesn't in any way come out of it in this way; he rather comes out of it like a genuine, sensitive human being who has never stopped learning and giving.
John's anger towards Jim is one of grief - how could you waste your talents Jim, and leave us behind like this.
Also, one's respect for John as a master musician is enhanced by this book. John was the best musician in the Doors - and that *is* saying something!
#15 Guest_TheWallsScreamedPoetry_*
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 10:30 AM
QUOTE(Lawless @ Aug 9 2005, 04:44 PM)
John's open letters to Jim Morrison are heart-rending - we can only be incredibly grateful to John for doing this, for baring of his soul so that we may all understand better Jim, John, the Doors, rock music, culture and life in general.
The danger in writing this kind of book is the possibility of coming out looking like an asshole. John doesn't in any way come out of it in this way; he rather comes out of it like a genuine, sensitive human being who has never stopped learning and giving.
The danger in writing this kind of book is the possibility of coming out looking like an asshole. John doesn't in any way come out of it in this way; he rather comes out of it like a genuine, sensitive human being who has never stopped learning and giving.
This was one of John's letters to Jim from the book.....as you said a brave and honest book that should be read by all Doors fans even riders ones....
Paris, 1975 - Dear Jim,
Dear Jim,
Well, we finally visited your
grave. I can't speak for the others, but I suppose I
didn't come to your funeral because I was so mad and
disappointed in you the last few years the band was together.
But you knew that. It took me three years to pay my
respects, I'm ashamed to say, but I'm here.
It wasn't hard to find your plot with all the graffiti leading up to it. But I was shocked that there wasn't any marker. It seems Pam, your girlfriend (or were you
married?), ran off with the money we gave her.
There were rumors that it went into her arm.
Did you know she was into the brown powder?
Hey, that's a low blow.
I don't know why I'm writing this to you.
Proves how much you possessed all of us - me, at least. You're supposed to be fucking dead, and here I am brooding over a letter to you in a hotel.
But I don't care. I'm still pissed off and hurting.
I wish I would have had
the balls to say some things to you back in the
sixties, but you were incredibly powerful, and
intimidating. I'm extremely proud of our music, but there's some things I've got to get off my chest.
It's too late - for you. But it's not too late for me, and
maybe some others, like the young kids who still
idolize you.
One of the newly carved quotes from your
fans implies that you were into smack. I didn't know
that. How could I? I didn't know you very well at all
during your last days. I didn't want to. It's ironic how
the parasites who met you at the end of your life, no
matter how briefly, are now trying to cash in on your
friendship.
While I couldn't even look into your eyes. Those
demonic eyes. I had to protect myself. Don't ask me from what.
If anyone could have pulled you out of your
nosedive, it was Pam, only she started to slide into drugs, casual affairs, and general decadence along with you. I don't know who encouraged whom, and blaming doesn't do any good.
What was that big black Morrison cloud
that hovered over your head? Anyone who came into
close contact with you found himself under the fringes
of that darkness. You were the fucking Prince of
Darkness, Jimbo. At some point the myth we were building overtook us and started running things instead of the other way around. You'd think we could've torn it down or at least backed off a little. Or not
underestimated the power of a myth.
But it was a Game Called Insane, as you say, and you were its Poet-Priest, as they say; I say it became a freak show. When did it get out of hand, Jim?
What was the point of no return?
I need to know because I'm still carrying a shitload of
guilt around.
John Densmore, Riders On The Storm
#16
Sunday Trucker
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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:42 PM
Wow.........mindblowing...thanks for posting.
#17
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Posted 10 August 2005 - 05:33 PM
Rider's was the first Doors book I read. I loved it. People used to say he was whiney in it, but the things he complained about where pretty just too me. It's been 5 years since I have read it.
#18
Christie
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Posted 10 August 2005 - 08:47 PM
I read Riders a couple of years ago. It didn't strike me as whiney but as the honest feelings of someone who was swept up in something he couldn't control and who watched a friend destroy himself, knew it was happening, and couldn't do anything to stop it.
#19
knowidea
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Posted 10 August 2005 - 09:51 PM
QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Aug 9 2005, 06:30 PM)
This was one of John's letters to Jim from the book.....as you said a brave and honest book that should be read by all Doors fans even riders ones....
Paris, 1975 - Dear Jim,
Dear Jim,
Well, we finally visited your
grave. I can't speak for the others, but I suppose I
didn't come to your funeral because I was so mad and
disappointed in you the last few years the band was together.
But you knew that. It took me three years to pay my
respects, I'm ashamed to say, but I'm here.
It wasn't hard to find your plot with all the graffiti leading up to it. But I was shocked that there wasn't any marker. It seems Pam, your girlfriend (or were you
married?), ran off with the money we gave her.
There were rumors that it went into her arm.
Did you know she was into the brown powder?
Hey, that's a low blow.
I don't know why I'm writing this to you.
Proves how much you possessed all of us - me, at least. You're supposed to be fucking dead, and here I am brooding over a letter to you in a hotel.
But I don't care. I'm still pissed off and hurting.
I wish I would have had
the balls to say some things to you back in the
sixties, but you were incredibly powerful, and
intimidating. I'm extremely proud of our music, but there's some things I've got to get off my chest.
It's too late - for you. But it's not too late for me, and
maybe some others, like the young kids who still
idolize you.
One of the newly carved quotes from your
fans implies that you were into smack. I didn't know
that. How could I? I didn't know you very well at all
during your last days. I didn't want to. It's ironic how
the parasites who met you at the end of your life, no
matter how briefly, are now trying to cash in on your
friendship.
While I couldn't even look into your eyes. Those
demonic eyes. I had to protect myself. Don't ask me from what.
If anyone could have pulled you out of your
nosedive, it was Pam, only she started to slide into drugs, casual affairs, and general decadence along with you. I don't know who encouraged whom, and blaming doesn't do any good.
What was that big black Morrison cloud
that hovered over your head? Anyone who came into
close contact with you found himself under the fringes
of that darkness. You were the fucking Prince of
Darkness, Jimbo. At some point the myth we were building overtook us and started running things instead of the other way around. You'd think we could've torn it down or at least backed off a little. Or not
underestimated the power of a myth.
But it was a Game Called Insane, as you say, and you were its Poet-Priest, as they say; I say it became a freak show. When did it get out of hand, Jim?
What was the point of no return?
I need to know because I'm still carrying a shitload of
guilt around.
John Densmore, Riders On The Storm
Paris, 1975 - Dear Jim,
Dear Jim,
Well, we finally visited your
grave. I can't speak for the others, but I suppose I
didn't come to your funeral because I was so mad and
disappointed in you the last few years the band was together.
But you knew that. It took me three years to pay my
respects, I'm ashamed to say, but I'm here.
It wasn't hard to find your plot with all the graffiti leading up to it. But I was shocked that there wasn't any marker. It seems Pam, your girlfriend (or were you
married?), ran off with the money we gave her.
There were rumors that it went into her arm.
Did you know she was into the brown powder?
Hey, that's a low blow.
I don't know why I'm writing this to you.
Proves how much you possessed all of us - me, at least. You're supposed to be fucking dead, and here I am brooding over a letter to you in a hotel.
But I don't care. I'm still pissed off and hurting.
I wish I would have had
the balls to say some things to you back in the
sixties, but you were incredibly powerful, and
intimidating. I'm extremely proud of our music, but there's some things I've got to get off my chest.
It's too late - for you. But it's not too late for me, and
maybe some others, like the young kids who still
idolize you.
One of the newly carved quotes from your
fans implies that you were into smack. I didn't know
that. How could I? I didn't know you very well at all
during your last days. I didn't want to. It's ironic how
the parasites who met you at the end of your life, no
matter how briefly, are now trying to cash in on your
friendship.
While I couldn't even look into your eyes. Those
demonic eyes. I had to protect myself. Don't ask me from what.
If anyone could have pulled you out of your
nosedive, it was Pam, only she started to slide into drugs, casual affairs, and general decadence along with you. I don't know who encouraged whom, and blaming doesn't do any good.
What was that big black Morrison cloud
that hovered over your head? Anyone who came into
close contact with you found himself under the fringes
of that darkness. You were the fucking Prince of
Darkness, Jimbo. At some point the myth we were building overtook us and started running things instead of the other way around. You'd think we could've torn it down or at least backed off a little. Or not
underestimated the power of a myth.
But it was a Game Called Insane, as you say, and you were its Poet-Priest, as they say; I say it became a freak show. When did it get out of hand, Jim?
What was the point of no return?
I need to know because I'm still carrying a shitload of
guilt around.
John Densmore, Riders On The Storm
These "letters" John would write were the best part of the book in my opinion. Very unique and very revealing.
#20
Ensenada
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Posted 11 August 2005 - 06:45 AM
its a shame ...i love a lot of ray's music..his solo stuff is great. but why does he lie so much?? is it pure greed? does he want so badly to be more famous and well known thatn the other doors?
how does john truley feel about ray now?i would be pretty pissed off with all those lies he was telling about me just so his work will be bigged up. ray is a fabulist, whereas its clear to see that john is honest and prefers the truthful events...now its all coming out those of us who are not blinkered can see the lier ray is making himself out to be..which is a damn shame, he seems like such a nice old fella!
how does john truley feel about ray now?i would be pretty pissed off with all those lies he was telling about me just so his work will be bigged up. ray is a fabulist, whereas its clear to see that john is honest and prefers the truthful events...now its all coming out those of us who are not blinkered can see the lier ray is making himself out to be..which is a damn shame, he seems like such a nice old fella!
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