47 replies to this topic

[mutenostrilagony]

I know a lot of people on the forum aren't really fans or agree with mr. manzarek's view of things and that in a business sense he and john are not getting on but are probably good friends.  Lets remember ray formed this band and john joined.  The doors have their unique talents and could not survive without each other creatively.

Ray has his good qualitys and his uniquiness to the doors sound [b]we must not put him down to much.[/b]HAPPY 40TH ANNIVERSDARY TO THE DOORS, GREAT MUSIC!!

[worm man]

It seems for the moment not enough water has gone under the present bridge...I get the feeling they are a bit like brothers...when they're scraping, best not to get in the middle of it...I hope they do work togeather again...but only if it's pure.

[Sunday Trucker]

I'm afraid we can't do much about that...and probably shouldn't, because its personal. Long time band members sometimes have a lot of 'issues' in their relationships.
I used to think Morrison was The Doors but my vision got broader. They are all terrific creative musicians. We all have good sides and bad sides in our personality and no public dirty laundry will take the good sides away for me.
We could even learn things with the discussion of what art stands for today (?).

[MeagerFood521]

Since joining this forum I knew nothing about the riffs between the remaining 3 doors.  Seems alot of  members are not at all fond of Ray but when it comes to Robby, feel he just follows Ray's lead and doesn't make any waves,
so how could anyone attack him?
If Jim himself were  the 'driving force' for the doors, it just could be that we would have missed out on the group completely.
As intelligent as Jim was, money was not one of his concerns.
Think about it, where would we go?  Is there a musician or group worthy of our fanship...and would we still be fans almost 3 decades after the lead vocalist passed away?
When I say 'lead vocalist' I feel that is how Jim wanted to be recognized.
Everything worked out, Ray had foresight and a mind for business along with his unequaled musical gifts, a guitarist of Robby's talent comes along once in a lifetime, and John has proven to us his appreciation of our loyalty and has continued on his own path....alone.
Don't you love me madly???????????
Jacky/Philadelphia,PA.

[The Philosopher King]

Since joining this forum I knew nothing about the riffs between the remaining 3 doors.  Seems alot of  members are not at all fond of Ray but when it comes to Robby, feel he just follows Ray's lead and doesn't make any waves,
so how could anyone attack him?
If Jim himself were  the 'driving force' for the doors, it just could be that we would have missed out on the group completely.
As intelligent as Jim was, money was not one of his concerns.
Think about it, where would we go?  Is there a musician or group worthy of our fanship...and would we still be fans almost 3 decades after the lead vocalist passed away?
When I say 'lead vocalist' I feel that is how Jim wanted to be recognized.
Everything worked out, Ray had foresight and a mind for business along with his unequaled musical gifts, a guitarist of Robby's talent comes along once in a lifetime, and John has proven to us his appreciation of our loyalty and has continued on his own path....alone.
Don't you love me madly???????????
Jacky/Philadelphia,PA.

Nice post. Hit some nails on heads there!

I think they'll work together when they're ready, if they're ever ready again. I'm just grateful for what John did do from 1965 till An American Prayer in 1978 with The Doors and Jim. If he wants to give any more in the name of The Doors, then I welcome it. If he doesn't, then I just say, with that wonderful thing known as hindsight; thanks John. You've been honest and true all the way through. I just wish I'd acknowledged it sooner. I'm sorry about that John. Clever people acknowledge decent people after they've disagreed with them. Truly wise people (ie not me!) acknowledge decent and sincere people WHILE they're disagreeing with them. I don't think as a fan I did that. I'll learn I guess.

Daniel PK

[knowidea]

Nice posts guys.  You know.....obviously myself being a huge fan, I never fail to respect the talent and the magic of why we are here (or there) concerning these guys and the music they did in the first place.  I'm personally looking forward to this upcoming 40th celebration as much for the cause of it as I am for a celebration together of those of us who have a common passion.

[gotothelight]

Nice posts guys.  You know.....obviously myself being a huge fan, I never fail to respect the talent and the magic of why we are here (or there) concerning these guys and the music they did in the first place.  I'm personally looking forward to this upcoming 40th celebration as much for the cause of it as I am for a celebration together of those of us who have a common passion.

Nicely said Jim...and I agree that beyond personalities, the passion is, and always will be, in the music.

[The Philosopher King]

Nice posts guys.  You know.....obviously myself being a huge fan, I never fail to respect the talent and the magic of why we are here (or there) concerning these guys and the music they did in the first place.  I'm personally looking forward to this upcoming 40th celebration as much for the cause of it as I am for a celebration together of those of us who have a common passion.

:INSERT CHEERS EMOTICON HERE!:

PK

[Ana]

we remember.

[Sunday Trucker]

IMO Doors fans are split in two sides: the ones who like mythology, stuck with the media shallow eyes and the ones interested in music, culture and history of an interesting moment in time like the sixties, dificult for us to catch all its facets.

[The Philosopher King]

Imo that Damn Manzarek is a damn disgrace to morrison's memory.

Unconstructive yet damning! How unusual...

Without that "Damn Manzarek," and supposedly that "Damn Krieger" too, as well of course as John, very few of us would even have a memory of Jim Morrison. Chew on that one for a minute before you post back with some thing about Manzarek being the reincarnation of the Devil or something!

PK

[jym]

& let's not forget the flip side of that coin, Ray with Robby's tacit approval tried a hostile takeover The Doors name, & tried to push out his other 2 partners in that enterprise, John Densmore & the Morrison estate, all the while using the image of Jim Morrison & when fans voiced their disapproval basically told them they were fans of Jim Morrison's pants & to go sit in their rooms & play with themselves.

[Sunday Trucker]

Yes, I don't understand why a person with 500 USD to spare is better than any other Doors fan...

[The Philosopher King]

I also don't like the meet & greet ticket crap and I've said as much on Ray's site. There are things to like about Ray and things not to like too. He's human and far from perfect. This meet & greet (M&G) I think is not nice, for a couple of practical reasons. I've bought regular tickets (you may have heard I'm a ROTS fan amongst other things...    ) for London and Manchester and I have of course seen them before. I've met the band after shows before, without paying any extra for the priviledge, and knowing my jammy good luck will probably do the same this New Year. Now some people are paying a shit-load of money for something that I've had for free. I don't think that's fair. Also, why should Doors fans be able to put themselves ahead of other Doors fans via the power of their wallet? Short answer, they shouldn't IMHO.

I think what I'd like to bring up is a question regarding ROTS and everything. It seems to run as a permanent thread in so many threads on here. We can't seem to have a single thread as John fans that mention Ray's name without one of us saying something negative about Ray. I'm not trying to say that a negative opinion shouldn't be expressed about Ray; a) I'm not a mod, don't want to be one on John's site, and don't want to try and stifle anyone and b ) I believe massively in free speech, no matter how much I disagree with another's opinion. I just hope at some point we can have a thread on here that praises Ray and/or Robby without reference to ROTS and that at some point we can have threads on Ray and Robby's side that praise John without reference to the fact that he sued his former bandmates. There's just so much more to The Doors than the scandal that erupted around ROTS.

Before I forget, Stuart, sorry for coming on so strong in my last post; I'm just used to a hard reception around here as one of the few ROTS fans with the balls to straddle the message board fences around here!!! I disagree with you, but I really do respect your opinion. I've seen your posts before and I like the way you state your opinions. Peace to ya man.

What I'd like to add in respect of your opinion that "that Damn Manzarek is a damn disgrace to morrison's memory", is that it's one thing to maybe say that you believe that Manzarek is maybe erm...'bringing disgrace to Morrison's memory.' I mean that would, for me, be one way of summing up ROTS and everything commercial going on re The Doors right now. But, and I know, I'm splitting hairs to the nth degree here, I don't think you're being fair when you say that Manzarek IS a disgrace to Morrison's memory. You get my point there (I think I get my point, but only just! ). Manzarek is more than the sum of his involvement and leadership of ROTS, and the commercial activities of the moment. He's also the guy who got a band together with Morrison, Krieger and of course Densmore called The Doors. He's also an amazing genius of a musician and he's also been one of the people beating the drum loudly and keeping the name of Jim Morrison and The Doors in the spotlight, for whatever reasons we ascribe to that drum-beating. And anything great, no matter how great, needs a little publicity to get into people's heads.

Finally, if I may quote you briefly Jym...

& when fans voiced their disapproval basically told them they were fans of Jim Morrison's pants & to go sit in their rooms & play with themselves.

When did Ray or ROTS tell Doors fans who disapproved of either ROTS, or Doors-commercial activity that they could go sit in their rooms & play with themselves? Did I miss that interview, memo or press release? I mean really, is it wholly necessary to inflame an old and semi-permanently hostile nasty situation with more anti-whoever/whatever fuel? When is it gonna end? When Ray's dead? Or will some people be organising an effergy burning over his grave? What I mean to ask is, why? I know it's hurt people, the ROTS project. I'm saddened, genuinely saddened, that a project that has brought so much joy has also offended so many people. And yeah, ROTS could have been handled a LOT more sensitively, and maybe using the words 'the doors' in previous band name titles wasn't the cleverest move, but Jesus Christ, this is only a band, and yes I know Ray's making millions off of a band name that he subsequenly was told by a court he had no right to use, regardless of being a founder member of that band and regardless of previous precidents of bands changing personell but not names. But why such a massive amount of anger? I mean, it just doesn't serve any positive purpose after so long. ROTS goes on, they sell tickets for fun. If I don't like something, I don't watch it or listen to it and unless it's physically slapping me in the face I don't let it piss me off. Oh well, maybe ROTS is slapping some Doors fans in the face, but I don't think it is. I think it has it's hand outstreched and some Doors fans are choosing to walk into the hand and then say they've been slapped so to speak!!! There was a point somewhere in the middle of all that metaphor use...

Also, the commercial activity that seems to pissing off a lot of people at the moment and causing some of us to accuse Ray of being a sell-out bastard etc etc.? That commercial activity needs John's approval as well you know! So when it comes to the book, the new box set, the proposed Las Vegas 'interactive exhibit' etc., I'd say if you're gonna have a blast at Ray, at least be consistent and have a blast at Robby and John too!!! Or instead, why not try turning the other cheek? And for the record I support ROTS and I support all the new releases and new media' activity from The Doors about The Doors. I say good for them, and if people wanna buy it, I wanna see The Doors get rich off it. They're fuckin' brilliant and deserve the right to swim around in a pile of US Dollars big enough to fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool. I'd sooner see them get all the money than The Rolling Stones...

They're just people, like you and I, is all.

Daniel

[jym]

Finally, if I may quote you briefly Jym...

When did Ray or ROTS tell Doors fans who disapproved of either ROTS, or Doors-commercial activity that they could go sit in their rooms & play with themselves? Did I miss that interview, memo or press release? I mean really, is it wholly necessary to inflame an old and semi-permanently hostile nasty situation with more anti-whoever/whatever fuel? When is it gonna end? When Ray's dead? Or will some people be organising an effergy burning over his grave? What I mean to ask is, why? I know it's hurt people, the ROTS project. I'm saddened, genuinely saddened, that a project that has brought so much joy has also offended so many people. And yeah, ROTS could have been handled a LOT more sensitively, and maybe using the words 'the doors' in previous band name titles wasn't the cleverest move, but Jesus Christ, this is only a band, and yes I know Ray's making millions off of a band name that he subsequenly was told by a court he had no right to use, regardless of being a founder member of that band and regardless of previous precidents of bands changing personell but not names. But why such a massive amount of anger? I mean, it just doesn't serve any positive purpose after so long. ROTS goes on, they sell tickets for fun. If I don't like something, I don't watch it or listen to it and unless it's physically slapping me in the face I don't let it piss me off. Oh well, maybe ROTS is slapping some Doors fans in the face, but I don't think it is. I think it has it's hand outstreched and some Doors fans are choosing to walk into the hand and then say they've been slapped so to speak!!! There was a point somewhere in the middle of all that metaphor use...

Also, the commercial activity that seems to pissing off a lot of people at the moment and causing some of us to accuse Ray of being a sell-out bastard etc etc.? That commercial activity needs John's approval as well you know! So when it comes to the book, the new box set, the proposed Las Vegas 'interactive exhibit' etc., I'd say if you're gonna have a blast at Ray, at least be consistent and have a blast at Robby and John too!!! Or instead, why not try turning the other cheek? And for the record I support ROTS and I support all the new releases and new media' activity from The Doors about The Doors. I say good for them, and if people wanna buy it, I wanna see The Doos get rich off it. They're fuckin' brilliant and deserve the right to swim around in a pile of US Dollars big enough to fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool. I'd sooner see them get all the money than The Rolling Stones...

They're just people, like you and I, is all.

Daniel

Yeah, you must have missed that interview, I'm sure if you're interested enough you can google it & find it. Why the anger? Well, let's see, when someone I admired, someone who who in my years of fandom put money in his pocket that has afforded him a pretty decent life, basically tells me I can go fuck myself if I don't like his ideas, well I get mad. When Ray decided on a scorched earth policy regarding the lawsuit & it's outcome, I get mad. When Ian onstage tells people to come to this website & flood it, I got mad. So don't come post here so disingenously as you don't know what Ray said or what the issues are about, you certainly do & have been posting about them since last year, at the least.

I don't fan the flames of anything, look at how long this thread was running, but I'll tell you what if you want to come here & post what you will about Ray there will be a counterpoint.

[The Philosopher King]

Yeah, you must have missed that interview, I'm sure if you're interested enough you can google it & find it. Why the anger? Well, let's see, when someone I admired, someone who who in my years of fandom put money in his pocket that has afforded him a pretty decent life, basically tells me I can go fuck myself if I don't like his ideas, well I get mad. When Ray decided on a scorched earth policy regarding the lawsuit & it's outcome, I get mad. When Ian onstage tells people to come to this website & flood it, I got mad. So don't come post here so disingenously as you don't know what Ray said or what the issues are about, you certainly do & have been posting about them since last year, at the least.

I don't fan the flames of anything, look at how long this thread was running, but I'll tell you what if you want to come here & post what you will about Ray there will be a counterpoint.

Point by point response for ya:

1. Yeah, I guess I did miss that interview, but seeing as you're the one quoting from the interview, why don't you post a link?

2. The money you put in his pocket was for works of music and associated products. You bought a product he produced with his bandmates, The Doors. You like his musical ideas as a member of The Doors. If you don't like his musical ideas as a member of ROTS, then fine.  On a sidenote: Fuck me, I've dedicated a little bit of my time to diplomacy and being nice for the sake of being nice. I don't need your anger, and I don't care for it either. Do what the fuck you want with it, but please don't direct at civilised people like me in future. I don't want it, I don't need it, and I'm sure there's a message board policy against it!

3. A 'scorched earth' policy? Jesus Christ, this is a band, not a genocide. Go get a sense of perspective!!! Ian Astbury made those comments 3 years ago in New York - I remember it, 'cos I was there. Bloody hilarious. Obviously few people took him seriously, as I don't ever recall John's site being flooded. As for me knowing everything Ray says, I never claim to have. I know a fair bit, not everything, because my life extends beyond my love and obsession for The Doors.

4. I don't make out that I don't know what 'the issues' are. I do know what the issues are and I have been posting CONSTRUCTIVELY, for god only knows how long. And me, disingenous? Don't make me laugh. I'm a genuine guy, posting as a fan of all three musicians. When your head and heart isn't filled with hate, it's possible to do this.

5. As for me posting about Ray on this site, did I start this thread? No. What I have done is try to stop yet another thread from being pissed on by people with nothing better to do than to badmouth members of The Doors.

We've frankly all had and taken many opportunities to debate ROTS. This thread wasn't started from what I can see, in order to discuss ROTS. But here we are again, not because I've come here saying 'ROTS are the best thing since sliced bread, in your face JD' or any bullshit like that, but because as usual, people who like to hate are still gunning for Ray. Here's the thing: Ray Manzarek and Robby Krieger along with 3 other people, play around the world, music that people like. John Densmore has successfully ensured that the words The Doors have fuck all to do with it anymore. It's what he wanted, it's what he got. Good for John. He defended his principles, and ROTS fans got their live music. John seems satisfied with this. Yet some of his fans don't. All I can suggest is that if you're not happy with the outcome of John's lawsuit, and you would like to see Ray Manzarek banned from public life, then sue him. I'm sure you can find one judge in the USA at least, who would gladly place an order on Ray Manzarek to never open his mouth again. I am beginning to believe that this is the only thing that will satisfy certain 'Doors fans cum Ray haters.'

Finally, those words 'don't come post here' in whatever context you want to place them in; don't bother. Those four words should only be posted by a Moderator, not a regular member like you or I. You will not intimidate me into changing the style and/or substance of what I post from JD's boards, just because I have an opinion that differs from your's, JD's or anyone elses. If John himself or Knowidea ever have enough of me posting on here, they can tell me to stop anytime and I will do so, but I know how to express my opinions appropriately, and as a result I have been warmly welcomed by the mod's on this board. You do not appear to know how to behave decently on these boards towards me, or if you do know, you have simply chosen to behave aggressively and rudely towards me, and probably anyone else who has an opinion which isn't in agreement with your rather extreme outlook towards Ray Manzarek specifically and ROTS in general. The man is a 67 year old pensioner and your attitude towards him is shocking. But you're not the only one. It would appear that both misery and bittnerness love company. Remember these words from The Doors: "We are brothers in arms." That's what they are despite this whole mess. I always try my best to offer my opinions with civility and politeness because I keep the strength of their words and attitude in mind when I come here. It appears to be something that not everyone else wants to do. It's a shame, because it exposes a hypocritcal streak in a minority of JD fans who claim to support him and believe in what he says, yet choose to ignore an important message from him when it suits them for the purpose of attacking those who disagree with them.

Fond Regards,

Daniel

PS, is it just my imagination, or did this thread get moved from 'Talk To John' to here? Just curious - probably my deluded mind deluding me yet again - lol!