110 replies to this topic

[hollifer]

I would never have described JM as a 12 year old (except when he was of course!) He always seemed to me in many ways older than his years.

to me, he seemed both young and older than his years. he didn't deal with reality and emotions much like an adult, but his wisdom and insight surpassed many his own age.

[mewsical]

Val Kilmer made the point that Morrison seemed to be different to each person you spoke to during his research for the role back in 1990.

He was like a 12 year old; an eternal juvenile delinquent.

Some may have seen him that way as he did have a strange sense of humour but he was grown up enough to want to see The Doors progress rather than become The Monkees and this attitude was at odds with the 'hits band' that some in the band and Elektra wanted to see become the mainstay of The Doors as a corporate entity.
His attitude to Buick and the sale of a song he had barely anything to do with showed how mature he was with regards his art.
His anger at the seeming betrayal of that art by his band mates not the pettiness of a child but the righteous indignation of an adult who cared enough about what he did to be pretty pissed off by people who did not share his vision.
Getting drunk was not a sensible response it's true and not one he deserves respect for as such but the reasons why Morrison fell into drink are not as clear cut as DiCillo presents and his tunnel vision towards this subject shows his ineptitude when it comes to the documentary genre.
He seems not to have had a sense of wanting to find out rather just went along with what he was told.

Preferring to just go along with The Doors Myth than try to explore new avenues and form new conclusions. Not daring to upset the status quo and falling back onto the media trick of kicking a dead man whilst he was down and not giving him a chance to even defend himself via his own recorded words.

Jim 'fell into drink' because he was an alcoholic.  He was also from the South originally, and it's a rite of passage for young men to drink there.  Alcoholism is a progressive disease with only two outcomes, recovery or death.  This is very well known in the medical community.  When they say death, this doesn't mean that you drink enough to die, but that you make very stupid decisions based on being drunk, i.e. driving your car and causing a fatal accident, falling and dying from those injuries, taking drugs that you wouldn't take when sober, and so on.

As far as the Buick event, let's not forget that Jim disappeared for several days while this offer was on the table, and because the other Doors couldn't find him, they went ahead without him.  For him to be so righteously indignant is a little over the top.  It should have been more of a "sorry, guys, I should have at least called in."  And then make your objections.  Instead, he acted without much consideration for his band-mates, and then expected them to be understanding.  That's pretty high-handed, if you think about it.

[mewsical]

Alex, it was not uncommon to place transatlantic calls in those days - I certainly did it often when I was in the UK and had friends in Los Angeles - in 1968.  You don't need a mobile phone to contact other countries.  On top of which, Elektra had a London office and all Jim had to do was check in with Clive, let him know where he could be contacted, and then go on his merry way.  We also had - gasp! - answering services as well, who were particularly good at tracking their customers.  No excuse.  Sorry.  I doubt Clive even knew that Jim was in London.  

As far as the Klan, etc., I do believe that Jim had the temerity to call Tony Funches the 'n' word to his face, so I rest my case.  Jim did have his redneck side, don't kid yourself!  The entire South was not in the Klan either, or approved of such things, but one generally kept your feelings about segregation to yourself.  

I believe that he was progressing into more serious alcoholism for no reason other than that's the nature of the disease.  He was powerless over it, and it began to take its toll at that time.  They do say that emotionally the alcoholic remains the same age was when they began drinking.  Therefore, Jim was emotionally functioning like maybe a 20 year old?  Hence the unreasonable reaction to this rather meaningless situation with Buick, i.e. I'm going to smash Buicks on Santa Monica Boulevard, on stage, etc.  

I owned an Opel.  They were very good cars for the price.

[mewsical]

But what possible reason did Morrison feel he needed to keep in constant contact with his employers when he was on holiday.
Do you feel the need to keep in touch with your boss when enjoying your vacation?

This simply places the blame on Morrison who should have kept in contact with Ray and Elektra so only had himself to blame for Buick.
Surely they knew he had stayed behind in London or was it a case of 'where the hell is Jim...he's disappeared?' when they arrived at LA airport?.

Of course on the flipside perhaps due to the nature of the agreement the band had between themselves the other three should have accorded the missing one the courtesy of waiting until he could be contacted and informing him of the offer on the table. Consideration works both ways does it not?
This idea that Buick desperately needed an answer only comes from one source so we have no idea of it's veracity and it conveniently places the blame on the one who was out of touch.

As you say....'you believe' which is simply conjecture on your part.
As much of the Doors story is.
As you say he was in the grip of a disease and powerless to control it but surely outside forces can impact on such a disease and exacerbate it.

But looking beyond the obvious to discover a different tale is something worthwhile do you not agree or why else bother having a discussion forum if we don't discuss.

Maybe if Tom had an attitude like that we would not have a thread like this.

Jim was not a 9-5 employee, so that argument goes out the window right there.  As I've rarely had a vacation during my working life I wouldn't know, but it's a matter of personal responsibility to my way of thinking.  When I was still a publicity director, there was no time when people didn't know where I was or how to reach me.  Usually, they leave you alone, of course.  

Unless you have some personal experience with the disease of alcoholism, it is difficult to talk about it with any clear understanding on the part of those without experience.  There is no 'cure' for alcoholism, there is only recovery, and you stay in recovery for life.  You refer to yourself, for the balance of your life, as a "recovering alcoholic."  You never get over it or beat it.  You can simply manage it one day at a time.

I had experience with alcoholism by the time I got to LA, so I was able to discuss things with Jim from that perspective.  As I've said before, he listened attentively, and he certainly knew that his life was spinning out of control at the time.  Whether he acknowledged that was the result of drinking, or simply outside events, or a combination of both, I don't know.  He was pretty smart, and I don't know how he could have avoided that conclusion at some level.  We can't always be dumping the blame on John, Robby and Ray constantly.  It takes two (or four) to tango.

[mewsical]

But John, Robby and Ray constantly dump the blame on Jim so why is it not fair to look with different eyes?

I don't know that they 'constantly' do that.  John went through some difficult years in litigation, sticking up for Jim's ideals.  

Bottom line, you had three guys who were quite similar and one guy who wasn't.  They could hardly be expected to change their lifestyle to his, could they?  So all four of them could go out on majestic binges together?  And get exactly what accomplished? All four of them in rehab or dead in Paris?

[hollifer]

Jim was not a 9-5 employee, so that argument goes out the window right there.

i agree here. i know plenty in my 9-5 world who leave contact info, 'just in case'. i've done it a couple of times myself. and in fact, the husband of an executive would take her on cruise vacations where reception is practically nil, for the sole reason that she wouldn't be able to do any work. i see jim and the doors as self-employed-type persons, where they should have contact info available when they're away, regardless. it seems that in showbiz, there always needs to be a way to get in touch.

We can't always be dumping the blame on John, Robby and Ray constantly.  It takes two (or four) to tango.

they may have blamed jim because they felt helpless. they didn't have a problem, so how can they really empathize with jim or know what to do, esp. back in the 60s? you can't make an alcoholic get help. they either eventually do it in their own time or die. jim was very, very independent and it was not in his nature to ask for help for anything. he seemed to like to do things for himself by himself.

[mewsical]

i agree here. i know plenty in my 9-5 world who leave contact info, 'just in case'. i've done it a couple of times myself. and in fact, the husband of an executive would take her on cruise vacations where reception is practically nil, for the sole reason that she wouldn't be able to do any work. i see jim and the doors as self-employed-type persons, where they should have contact info available when they're away, regardless. it seems that in showbiz, there always needs to be a way to get in touch.

Very true, especially when it comes to show biz.  Deals come up all the time and the artist needs to be available for that very reason.  At least, should be reachable within a reasonable period of time, i.e. a couple of days.  

they may have blamed jim because they felt helpless. they didn't have a problem, so how can they really empathize with jim or know what to do, esp. back in the 60s? you can't make an alcoholic get help. they either eventually do it in their own time or die. jim was very, very independent and it was not in his nature to ask for help for anything. he seemed to like to do things for himself by himself.

The last sentence is very insightful.  He would never have asked for help and in this case, it was fatal.

[hollifer]

Morrison dissapeared for weeks a couple of times during his Doors career ......I don't think Jim did show biz....but what do I know?

jim certainly was in showbiz. not like liza minnelli per se, but he was an entertainer. he was a public figure that must be accounted for no matter where he is in the world, like the president. i realize this is stretching it, but just trying to prove my point.

also, back to jim and help. it must have taken him a LOT of courage to say he was having a nervous breakdown. that was his one 'documented' time that he actually 'asked' for help. unfortunately, instead of everyone stopping and thinking about the best interest of the human being, it seemed to become the best interest of the band. that being said, i do not believe that ray, robby, or john intentionally ignored jim's essential plea for help. they were young, inexperienced in dealing with substance abusers and thought jim taking a little break would help him get on track. afterall, for most people, and probably them, taking a little break is all that's needed. ultimately, as has been said many times, jim was responsible for his own life, not anybody else. people did try to help, so jim was not completely ignored. jim's problems began long before the doors were formed, IMO.

[NP]

The Strange days period is encapsulated in this statement which is not at all correct.
‘the organ features a hint of the carnival both childlike and darkly disturbing . It’s no accident that the 2nd album features circus performers on it’s cover’.
But it was indeed an accident as Jim Morrison had hated the first cover and said put dogs on the new cover. When asked why he said tongue firmly in cheek it spells God backwards. It’s better than having our fucking faces on it was Jim’s response.
The cover was designed by Bill Harvey and page 206 of Follow The Music tells a different tale to DiCillo who insinuates that the cover reflected the music somehow which was far from the case.
Once again poor research and narrative that misrepresents the facts.

You're completely full of it if you don't think that album art on Strange Days reflects the music at all. A perfect example being "I Can't See Your Face In My Mind"

Carnival dogs consume the lines
Can't see your face in my mind
Don't you cry Baby please don't cry
And don't look at me with your eyes
I can't seem to find the right lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xLV4QJilU

The Doors music has often been described as circus-like or like a dark carnival. Esp. in respect to the 1st 2 albums.

[gotothelight]

But John, Robby and Ray constantly dump the blame on Jim so why is it not fair to look with different eyes?

I often wonder if they don't hold Jim's alcohol problem completely responsible for the end of The Doors.. when in fact.. The Doors were ending anyway as Jim had had enough. His alcohol problem probably made him quite difficult to work with at times, but without him.. there would have be NO Doors at all.. and I think they tend to forget that. I guess it's easy 40 years after the fact to distort reality, but I really think that  Jim gave that band everything he had... and somehow that's taken a back-seat to the more sensationalized stuff that makes money. Sad when you think about it.

[mewsical]

You're completely full of it if you don't think that album art on Strange Days reflects the music at all. A perfect example being "I Can't See Your Face In My Mind"

Carnival dogs consume the lines
Can't see your face in my mind
Don't you cry Baby please don't cry
And don't look at me with your eyes
I can't seem to find the right lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xLV4QJilU

The Doors music has often been described as circus-like or like a dark carnival. Esp. in respect to the 1st 2 albums.

When I first heard the Doors, it reminded me of someone playing the hurdy-gurdy, and the lead singer sounded like Frank Sinatra.  It was an interesting sound!  And very carnival-like.

[mewsical]

Btw, just to revisit the inaccuracies in the movie, and I just posted this in the thread about Pam's handwriting, she tells the police in her statement "I arrived in France with my friend last March."  Even though Pam was there from February until her 'friend' arrived, she says March.  It's March, y'all.

[Helen]

I often wonder if they don't hold Jim's alcohol problem completely responsible for the end of The Doors.. when in fact.. The Doors were ending anyway as Jim had had enough. His alcohol problem probably made him quite difficult to work with at times, but without him.. there would have be NO Doors at all.. and I think they tend to forget that. I guess it's easy 40 years after the fact to distort reality, but I really think that Jim gave that band everything he had... and somehow that's taken a back-seat to the more sensationalized stuff that makes money. Sad when you think about it.

I think you could be right. Would be interesting to know what the average life span of a rock band is

[NP]

Not at all...it's simply a fact that the album art was not at all based on the music.

Which is NOT the same as saying that the cover reflects the music as it indeed does and what I was saying is that the cover is not a reflection of the music contained within it but indeed does reflect that music.
Which sounds an odd statement but isn't if you actually read what I just said.


The story of Bill Harveys cover is out there if you bother to find it, and his ideas were nothing at all to do with the music. Yes his brilliant vision reflected the music inside but was not based on that music which is what Tom said.
I agree with you that the music is what you say and yes its a cool cover but it was not based on the music is the point I am making which is what DiCillo insinuates in his error strewn narrative.
It was indeed an accident that the cover portrayed street musicians as Morrison did not want his face on it

LOL, come on. I think you're being a little nit-picky here. I don't see anything wrong w/ Tom's statement about the music/album art, Im sure Bill Harvey was familiar w/ The Doors music before he designed the cover, he more than likely had it in mind as he came up w/ his ideas.